M758

Goal #1) - Allow the student to safely make their way around a race track.
Goal #2) - Allow the student to safely make their way around a race track at a resonable speed
Goal #3) - Allow the student to safely make their way around a race track at reasonable speed and have some fun along the way

It is a successfull day if I can get a novice (never been to the track student) to achieve all 3 goals.

Beyond this the goals of the program are to give the students added skills to understand how their imputs make the car respond and either help the students find additional speed in safe manner or gain extra driving margin at the same speed. Other skills include traffic management.

Now to acheive even goals 1-3 well some efforts are taked to give the student some basic car control skills. Theses are rearly all encompassing, but touch on weigh transfer, look far ahead, braking technique, smooth turn in, apex theory, etc. As a student looks to go faster these techniques are expanded on in greater detail. Should a student want to progress to a racing level there are instructors capable of providing that type of focused training. Should a student just want to spend time on a track safely that is encouraged as well. If a student just wants to learn what their car can do techniques to improve road driving their instruction can be taylored to that as well.

I have driven a few student's cars over the years. I instruct with PCA (Nat Certified) and NASA. When I drove a student's car it was similar to what many of you said. First 2-3 laps at reduced speed with the intent of slowly showing the student the proper line the first time out. In no way was the idea to get even close to the performance level of the car. The two most recient cars I have driven were a 996 TT and GT3. I think in both cases the students expected me to really stand on the car in straights, but I used really no more than 1/3 throttle even on long straight. Why? There is NOTHING to be learned by going full bore in such powerfull cars in straight line. In the corners I went at speeds I would be comfortable taking my grandma in the car. Again no matter how fast the car there is no point in spooking the student into a "are we we going to make this corner" feeling.

With respect students riding with instructors. I have taken students for rides in two forms. One is to give the student the line or show specific techniques. These are done at reduced speeds with focus in teaching. Other times usally at the end of the day or weekend I will take student out for few hot laps. These are 8/10th laps given more for a "fun time" that so much teaching. The lines used are rarely the "text book school line" and technique dips into many advanced items. Even so it can be nice for a student to feel what it really is like to push a car really hard. I always make sure to give a student a signal or code word for "stop I am getting sick/uncomfortable" and if we have another student session after this I ALWAYS stress that do NOT expect to run as fast is I did.

Now while PCA does not have instruction for "racing" let me tell you that if you want to progress to be a racer most instructors who are racers will tailor their training for that end. As you progress in skills they can also being to teach higher level skills not needed for normal DE like trail braking, left foot braking, common passing zones and even defensive lines. In spite of the PCA evironment being DE you can still learn these things when driving in the higher run groups without placing added risk to the driver around you.

mitch236

Ok, let me state me side. I do take students out with me. I do so only on the last run of the day as my friend Dan does. I admit that some students have an epiphany on occasion, most often about braking. I choose which students I take as best I can but I've been burned on occaision with the student who has to be seriously reigned in at the next session. But my party line at the track is, "I usually don't take students out with me".

As far as the two slow lap issue, there is a dilemma. One the one hand, I completely understand your concern about your car. And I realize stuff happens. I guess what I am trying to say is that if you met me, I think I would make you comfortable letting me drive your car. And believe me, I don't look at it as getting a chance to test drive different cars. I have the utmost respect for whatever car you have and when I am driving you around the track, at no time will you feel uncomfortable. I rarely get out of third gear. Since my goal is to show you the landscape of the track, I need to go slow enough to point out what is important. At the same time, I don't need to threshold brake to get a feel for your car's track worthiness. I know you have to pre-tech before the event and have a cursory grid tech at the track, but wouldn't you rather have me tell you to bleed your brakes then to find out the hard way? Also, not all techs are equal. Ask Agio about the student who showed up with the RX-7 with the V-8 engine smelling of raw fuel who passed tech and expected him to get in and instruct!

38D

I too will only take a student out at an 8/10ths "fun run" on the last run of the day.

sjanes

Mitch,

I think one of the differences about our view in taking students out, is that it sounds like you do it in the Red run group? When I take a student out, it is usually in the run group one above their own, so I am actually showing them how I want them to drive. My region does not allow passengers in Red unless it is another instructor.

TD in DC

From a student's perspective, I think that riding in the right hand seat with your instructor driving, whether that be in his or her car or your own, is much, much more helpful on day one.

If you don't know the track, then the ride should be relatively slow and designed more to orient the student to the track. This could/should happen during the first run session (before the student drives) or after the first run session if the student didn't realize how much he or she didn't know.

For more experienced drivers, it seems like the ride with the instructor should occur toward the end of the first day. Why? Because the student can then incorporate some of what he or she experiences in the ride. If the student is not a solo student, then the instructor can make sure that the student doesn't run out and try to imitate immediately. If the student is solo, then the student should be smart enough already to know this.

Not only have I learned tons sitting in the right seat, I have had a blast. I have had a great time getting rides from, among others, Larry H., Brian Keith Smith, Eric S., Tony K, Matt M., etc . . . These rides have helped me break through my own entry speed barriers, and, well, were just plain fun.

agio

Although, I believe you all...I must admit that I have my suspicions about whether or not most instructors actually drive less than "full out" even with a student in the car. In fact, I would tend to think that certain instructors only want to demonstrate their driving superiority to the student and may not back off any 10ths at all (and maybe try and add some 10ths, yikes!), thereby, nearly defeating the purpose to begin with.
To quote Greg, "Also this is a fun time and getting a ride in a "real" race car may make the person's week or even their year! I have had students or other people that I have given rides to give me thanks years afterwards. Also this gives you a nice measure of credibility."
Sounds an awful lot like a huge dose of testosterone and ego (for the instructor) for the pupose of "teaching" the student something about the way you want that student to drive.
I will say, for sure, that if there is a real educational benefit by taking the student out, under the right set of circumstances, I would condone it even though there may be contingent risks in doing so.
I rarely take any student for a ride. But, of course, I don't have "equal" seats/restraints.

Russ Murphy

I can't imagine having gotten to my current level (as mediocre as it is) of driving ablility without having ridden with many of my instructors over the years, both in their cars and them driving mine. All of the big "aha" moments for me came about in one of those two situations. Watching a skilled individual at whatever task they do well is an opportunity to learn something. I you drive a 944 turbo and want to understand the sublteties of driving one well, why wouldn't you want someone that races said vehicle to drive your car with you watching? I consider it a privilege that they (the instructor) would be willing to help me in this manner.

Greg Fishman

No, you got that part wrong. I race for huge doses of testosterone, not give rides to students. If you have ever raced you will know what I am talking about. I could easily drive at 7 or 8/10ths and give a student a ride that is fast enough to get their attention, and reinforce some things we have talked about. But not so fast as to make them see Jesus. I think we all have egos and it is nice to be told you are doing something well (driving a quick lap or helping improve a student).
As you know driving is best taught in a hands on manner, and sometimes the best way to learn is to be shown what to do and then get a chance to repeat that (at the student's level).

mrbill_fl

Ok, I'm a instructor for several clubs, ex racer, and a lot of hours on all the courses I teach.

I do like to dive the students car for several reasons, but mainly I want to feel safe when you're (the student is) behind the wheel.

next, I want to know what the car can or will do. (how much power, brakes, etc.).

few examples: a blue student in a 89 turbo had a front caliper sticking (only rt fr side was working, car pulled to right on braking). by jumping on the brakes I was able to loosen the caliper up.... (yes it had a tech... & student didn't realize the car pulled rt!!!)

next: 84 carrera, Rt rear tire to fender rub, noticed in walk around, I hit some curbs on to see if it would be an issue.(it was not). (fenders was not rolled, so cuts were in tire...)

and: green student, in 996 TT (heavily modded), a huge amount of HP and abrupt turbo wastegate engagement. (we dialed down the boost), and I watched what I said comming out of the turns where normal full power would be applied.

I also like to get the student in my car, whenever I think they are not getting it by talk alone. (threshold braking comes to mind, consistently early/late turn in, etc).

Since theres typically 3 sessions a day, driving the students car kills time... so theres got to be a good reason for me to take their time...

Sometimes, with a 2 day student, (Sat/Sun), on the 2nd day, after they've been in my car (day 1 and 2), I MAY ASK if they would mind me driving their car in my group, with them as rider. Again, its typically to show a technique. (like how much brakes the car really has).

Before going out, I state the goal, and what technique I'm trying to show.... once thats done I usually pit. rarely will I drive at over 7/10ths.

Driving a students car, on most occasions has helped the student, which really is the point.

At the Last school, I had a (green student) in a 2000 vette, and I didn't drive that car, (citrus region rules).

I have an idea what kind of power the car puts down, but wasn't sure if the rear would break free comming out of a turn. so, now I'm not sure what will happen if the student floors it comming out of a turn.... all was fine, but I'd have liked to know how much tourque and when...

Sooooo, like most rules, when correctly applied and used, theres few problems.

mitch236

Ahh, but there's a difference between novice teaching and intermediate coaching. I am talking about teaching DE. What you refer to is coaching. The DE mantra is to get you up to speed in a safe manner. Teach you the line and some basics so you can advance to a level where you are safe when left to your oun. Once you are solo, you would want coaching. That is a whole different mindset and requires a different instructor skillset. While many instructors are capable of coaching, some are not because when we train new instructors, coaching is not part of the program. Remember instructing DE is a basic level project. Taking a competent driver to the next level is coaching.

dave morris

I have NEVER heard of that before. Pardon me for saying so, but it sounds like a very bad idea.

38D

It's actually very easy to dial it down to 8/10ths. In fact, I almost never drive above 8/10ths at the few DEs I do. At a race, it is 10/10ths all the time, every time.

The guys that I know who will take a student out for a fast-ish ride don't do so for ego. All are racers and only care about results that are up on mylaps.com & pca.org anyway. Having some novice think you are god is pretty irrelevent.

I think that these fast-ish rides are extremely valuable because it helps to get a more advanced student used to increased speed & slip angle. Riding with an instructor that is slow and toolin' around maybe be ok for a novice, but will do little for a more advanced student. Even at 8/10ths, it can be a huge learning experience. When I was coming up, I would always seek out the fast instructors to get rides and it made a huge difference for me.

Btw, driving at 8/10ths reduces but does not elimate the risks. 8/10ths in my car at the Glen is probably still 145mph down the back straight (vs. 150 at full bore). Plenty of bad **** can still happen at 145.

Larry Herman

I am one who does not like to drive someone else's car. I feel that other than self-satisfaction, there is little to be gained, and lots to lose. I have on rare occasion driven upper level students cars (white group & above) because they were similar to what I have driven, and they specifically requested instruction in their own car. I have been asked, but usually turn down requests to "check out how my car handles". That entails driving the car close to it's limit, and the risk factor is too high for my or the owner's comfort level.

OTOH, I regularly drive a new green students car for the first 2 or 3 laps of the first day. It is with their consent of course, and with the purpose of showing them the track, and how I want them to drive. And it is at the speed that I want them to drive. We figure out the gears, look for braking and turn-in points, check the flag stations, and drive the line. It usually occurs at 2 or 3 tenths of my ability, but it is exactly what I want them to do when they first get behind the wheel.

My job as their instructor is to teach them how to drive on the racetrack and learn the techniques that they need to handle their car at high speeds. Once a student has progressed enough that they are honing their abilities, and not learning them, I will work on more advanced techniques. But at that point in their track driving careers, what they wish to continue to learn is up to them.

Russ Murphy

That makes sense to me, but the line between the two might be a bit blurry. Both of these things take place at a DE, do they not? Or maybe the transition between the two takes place earlier for some than others. I'd say I benefitted from "coaching" during my first DE weekend. I certainly wanted it from that point on. Maybe I got the DE mantra really quickly and maybe others don't, but I believe I got it quickly because A) my first instructor drove my car for a good portion (much more than two laps) of my first session and B) he gave me a ride in his car (similar drivetrain) which made me really understand some basic elements of driving a la mrbillfll's post.

M758

Yep taking students out in my 944 I can easily feel the extra weight and I know I can't dance the car like normal. I also work hard to not "screw-up" as I am setting and example. When I race, qual or practice it will push my car into a zone where I believe I can make the corner, but maybe not. If stay within my comfort zone I just don't get faster. When taking a student out I always work to ensure I am in my comfort zone as when out side it I have the option to choose that. My student does not I can really expect anyone to feel ok in my car if I go into a corner not knowing if I can make it out. Hey for me alone that is fine as it is a risk I am willing to take, but not one for my student.

As for the entire ego thing.... you really can't run a fast lap in DE session let alone a DE session with a passenger. So why try to turn a really fast lap. The difference between 8/10th and 10/10ths is maybe a 2-4 seconds and I'd bet most students would have no idea of this when you are out there. My goal is never to scare them either, but to show how "easy" it really is and how smooth it can feel when you are doing quite alot of things right. The "Ah Ha" comes when you show that you are work less than the student is, but still driving 2-3x as fast. THAT is a light bulb moment that going faster does not mean working harder, but driving smarter.