Palting

Agio
I don't want to turn this thread on to a discussion of whether the instructor should or should not drive the students car, but I want to make sure you don't give others the wrong impression. I am in Region 4 of PCA. I keep a log of all my DE activities, and I've been to 26 separate events, spread out among 5 different PCA clubs, 2 BMW clubs, and 1 Audi Clubi, as well as 3 TracQuest events, carried out over 5 different racetracks. That's a whole gaggle of instructors of all makes , sizes, and backgrounds. Although I was novice class (Class D) in only 1 event, my very first DE, never did an instructor ask to drive my car. Never. Not once. Not even when my C4S was the first and only 996 on the track. Students get a familiarization run by riding with the instructor in the instrucors car for several slow laps, and students are encouraged to ride along with the instructors in the instructors cars for some real life examples of excellent drivng. No instructor has ever driven my car, and no instructor has ever asked to do so. I am not saying that they should or shouldn't. I am saying that it is not unusual that they don't.

Z06, I would follow Dan's advice. Contact the club that organized the event first. It may simply be a misunderstanding. If it isn't, and the instructors behaviour truly is unacceptable, then you will be helping the club and other future students by correcting that instructors behaviour.

Capt. Carrera

It's really about being able to enjoy your Porsche at speed, with minimal risk of someone running into you, or you running into a wall. That's why there is an instruction period. To minimize the risks.

Yes, there is a standard. It's akin to the following: Keep the student safe. Teach them some skills. Coach them to apply what they've learned. Remind them to use good judgment. Sign them off when you trust them to be in the car right in front/behind you.

About 30 days of solo driving to be eligible to be an instructor. With 30 days under you're belt you can be eligible to take the course. The PCA National Instructor training is an all day in-class and role-playing course. The National Instructor course is about teaching and coaching skills. It’s not about car skills.


Rob - A PCA National Instructor

sjanes

An instructor should NEVER drive a student's car fast enough that the student is concerned about it. If that ever happens, tell the instructor immediately. Not at the end of the run, or the end of the day, but in the car. If the instructor does not slow down, tell them to pit. It's your car.

In my region (as in many others), we drive a student's car the very first time they are at the track. At my last event, my student had a 997TT, which I drove for the first 3 laps in the green run group. I was getting passed by other cars in green. The goal of me driving is to teach the student where the track goes, etc. If I was going fast enough for her to be concerned, then she wouldn't be listening to me, she would have been worried about her (very nice) car, and wouldn't have learned a thing.

If you have an issue about how an instructor drove your car, mention it to them. If that doesn't satisfy your concerns, mention it to the CI.

mitch236

Palting, I want to clarify the reasoning behind driving a student's car. First, since I (the instructor) will be a passenger in your car for the day, I want to be sure it is track worthy. And I don't care if you have a relatively new Porsche. There was one exception recently when a novice showed up with his new Carrera GT. Even though I only instructed him for one session (another instructor wanted me to try to get through to him) the original instructor did not drive his car at his own risk. Since the car had been on track before I got in, I felt assured.

If you are ever my student, I will ask to drive your car. If you refuse, I will get you another instructor. I will be very polite and helpful but my life is too dear to me to trust you that your car is track worthy (not aimed at you but every student). Most students don't get how important track worthiness is.

As far as giving students a ride in my car, that is a rarity. I don't think there is much to be learned by sitting in the right seat of a very experienced driver at the limit. There is also always the danger that the student may try to emulate my driving on the next session and get himself in trouble. If you think that I want to drive in my session at 7/10ths to show you around, think again. The most time efficient and practical way to assess a student's car and show him the track is to take his car for two slow laps and then switch drivers in the hot pits.

38D

To me the point of DE is to have fun. the way to have fun is to teach people to safely drive on the track. That implies a level of speed, even in the novice groups. You don't have to be setting track records, but you can't be so slow as to be dangerous to the other drivers. If the person wants to putter around at an absurdly slow speed, they should try something different (autocross maybe). My definition of too slow is if I spend most of my time trying to look in the mirror to make sure we are not about to get collected by a car from behind. If you've had such a student, you will know what I mean.

As a person progresses, it is about driving a better line, being smoother and going faster. IMHO run groups should be divided by skill & speed. Experience is currently how most regions divide run groups as it is a reasonable proxy for skill & speed, though this does not always work.

Now at most of the regions out east, the instructor drives the first two laps to show the student the line. If the person has been to the track before, you typically do not drive the first two laps. If the instructor drove your car more than 5/10ths, they were going to fast IMHO. I normally just leave the car in 4th or 5th, and putter aound so I can point stuff out. If you are going too fast, it is impossible for the student to take it all in.

(FYI I am PCA Nationaly Certifed, have instructed with many PCA regions, TracQuest & Chin)

smankow

I've been following this thread and I guess I'm a little thrown off by the instructors who, like mitch, will refuse to instruct a student who won't let them drive their car. First, all cars must go through a tech inspection followed by grid tech. Now, I know this isn't all inclusive, but what can you tell by driving a car that didn't show up through these inspections?

I agree that showing a student a glimpse of what the car can do is both good and bad, but if done properly, can greatly add to the students comfort zone.

A few years ago, I heard a similar story where the instructor wanted to drive the students CGT. The student told the instructor that if he could give him a check for the cost of the car (around $450K), he'd let him drive it. Maybe the instructor just wanted to drive a CGT, but keep in mind that students have an investment in their car and, if damaged, who would pay the bill? Are the instructors willing for foot the bill if they damage a students car?

When in an instructed group, I'd only had 2 instructors suggest that they drive the first few laps. Unfortunately, one couldn't fit into my car with the seat back braces. However, the instructor ride helped me to see the track, but I was still lost for a few laps as it's easier to get the feel behind the wheel rather than as a passenger. One other instructor suggested that he take me out for a few laps in my car since his wasn't at the track. He drove at about 5/10's or less but seemed a little more at the time. He was still well under control and at no time was I concerned about my car.

Now that I am in an uninstructed group, I still seek out instructors to ride with me so that I don't hit a plateau and will keep learning. I also try to ride with instructors, too.


Steve
2003 996

sjanes

I firmly believe that taking a student out in my car is a valuable part of the teaching process, but it has to be done correctly. If I'm working on something with a student and they don't quite get it, I'll take them out as a passenger in my car in the run group one level above theirs. I will then match the pace of that group (I'll pick a pace where I both pass cars and get passed) and demonstrate to the student what I was trying to teach. Sometimes people just need to see things to fully understand them.

If I had a first time student that just didn't want me to drive their car for the first session (my region doesn't do the "track worthiness" checkout), then I will drive them around in green in my car. No big deal. The idea is to teach them something, not test drive cars.

agio

Palting,
Here are my thoughts: I do nearly 26 events a year! I have been driving on tracks for more than 20 years in several different Porsche's and non-Porsches. I have instructed for nearly 17 years; up and down the east coast on more than 10 different tracks for more than 15 different PCA regions as well as for National; I've instructed for BMW; Ferrari; and several other independent venues...I've instructed professionally...yep, even been paid to do this. But having said that: I was not intending to give the wrong impression mate...you misunderstood my point.
If you don't want to drive the students car and I did emphasize, particulary novices, then so be it. You get into someone's car as a passenger and you literally place your safety in their hands. Part of the package has to be the car itself and because this is a relatively easy evaluation procedure--to check their car out for yourself by driving it intelligently and not relying on some stranger's evaluation of their car, why not do.
But, of course, it's up to you. You do what feels best for you. I did not mean that you are required to drive the student's car, I only meant I require that I drive the student's car.
BTW, there was one time...one time only...that's right, not twice, just once over the many years when a novice student would not let me drive their car. It was a Ferrari, but no problem at all...I got a new instructor for that student and all was just fine.

dave morris

Now .... that's a bit more rigid than I'd be. I've never had a student decline my offer to drive his/her car .... after explaining why .... and remembering I only bring it up with students that have never driven the track before ... and I think they've all been in Green ... but if a student objected, I think I'd just try to understand the reason. But again, it's never happened.

agio

Are we beating a dead horse? Let me try this out on you and see if you might agree: It's been discussed very thoroughly here and elsewhere, but can we agree that driving anywhere (on the track or on the highway) can be, in and of itself, a dangerous endeavor? If so, then we have a basis for debating my point of view.
I may seem intransigent at first, but haven't we all gotten into someone else's car to go out for, say, dinner and noticed that the driver is simply dangerous and unpredictable for whatever reason? Well, the risks are expotential when you venture into an unknown inexperienced student's car going out on a race track.
The student's number one objective should be the preservation and safety of their instructor, then themselves, then other drivers and then their own car...in that order.
So far this all seems almost too obvious, but based upon some of the positions taken here, I guess it's not that obvious.
There is a much clearer and safer way to expose the student to the track, namely, the instructor drives the student's car so that the student can visualize the track, the flag stations, the manner and technique employed by the instructor for visual driving, steering wheel management, braking, turning, track out, passing and being passed, etc. All the student has to do is look, listen and watch...and, at the very same time, the instructor can confirm that the student's car is fine.
So, what's wrong with that? Being less rigid (and I don't think it's a question of rigidity at all) is, IMHO, the best approach to introducing the student to a sport which demands safety, serious attention to detail in order to have fun...all at the same time.
Frankly, more than a few students have asked me to drive their cars again later in the day or the next day and you'd be surprised at the smiles and reactions from them when they do "get it"...and most do by saying, "ahhh, now I see what you want me to do."
Only my .03 (no longer .02)

Palting

I didn't want to turn this thread into whether an instructor should or shouldn't drive a students car, but it diid anyway. All I wanted clear was that there are a lot of PCA sponsored DE's, all of them as far as I'm concerned, that do not REQUIRE that the instructor drive the students car. It's about comfort level. You're uncomfortable riding in a students unknown car without first driving it to make sure it is safe, and I'm uncomfortable letting anyone I don't know drive my car unless I know they will respect my car. As far as I'm concerned, if the individual instructor requires that he/she drives my car first but allows a change of instructor if I refuse, then it's cool. After reading this thread, I wouldn't be surprised anymore, but I'd be cool with it. If an event made it a requirement that ALL student's cars be driven by the instructor first, any instructor you happen to get (GR for example), then I will look for another event.

DanS911

Very interesting, and yes it has taken on a life of it's own.
I did an event recently (another PCA region) where it was bacisally forbidden that the Instructor drive the car unless the student absolve the region and the Instructor of any wrong doing in the event of a misshap........my student of course requested that I drive a few laps in his car, I suppose I helped him understand the value.
In our region we make noise about it being MANDATORY that the Instructor drive the first few laps. Of course if the student is uncomfortable we give them a few different options.
To continue the hijack....
As always I agree 100% with 90% of what my good friend Mitch says.
I would have NO PROBLEM reassigning if a student didn't want an Instructor to drive their car, in fact I am quite sure that I have done so in the past. On the other hand I have seen great value to a student taking a ride in the right seat of my car. In fact I think I would say that it is almost normal that I do this. I get enough track time that I am entertained by having someone else in my car every so often.
First let me say that I NEVER do so until the last or second to the last run of the day. God forbid they "try to drive like we do". However I have had many students have an epiphany or two regarding things like my steering input (or lack of it) consistency hitting marks or using all of the track.
Several advanced students have remarked about watching footwork and smoothness. Novices usually make statements like "Oh that's what you meant by BRAKE HARD!"
I think there is much to be learned by getting a little right seat time , I know there was for me.

Greg Fishman

I don't agree with this. I think a student should get to see an experienced, competent driver getting close to the limits. But he/she should be instructed that this is not how they should drive in their own cars. Also this is a fun time and getting a ride in a "real" race car may make the person's week or even their year! I have had students or other people that I have given rides to give me thanks years afterwards. Also this gives you a nice measure of credibility. I was instructing a guy in a Noble and he didn't really seem interested in listening to me, he was driving way, way under the limit but thought he was doing everything right. So I took him out in my car and showed him a few things about the right line, braking points, etc. After that he changed his attitude and became a better student.

Greg Fishman

Absolutely. When I would hit a plateau I would either ride with someone I knew to be better or get them to drive my car. Always picked up some time and learned a new technique or line, etc. The best was having a couple pros in my car, very humbling and an experience I can't recommend enough.

38D

I would agree. To me there are two type of ride I take students on: #1 the I'm-gonna-show-you-a-certain-line/technique ride, and #2 the this-is-for-fun-and-your-gonna-be-scared ride. Both have their purpose. For #1, I do this at a greatly reduced speed, though the student probably thinks it feels fast. For #2, I'm still not at a full race 10/10ths, but more like a comfy 8/10ths (can a student really tell the difference between 2:12s and 2:10s at the Glen? I think not). I know that riding with high quality instructors really helped me a ton. I will never forget riding with Keith Peare at the Glen. 2 flat in a 2.8L 914 changes your perspective of cornering speed. I swear he barely brakes for the busstop.

I had a similar experience having David Murray drive my car a couple of times this past year. With him I learned more about the line in a couple of places, specifically how to better trail brake and apex a earlier than I had. His exact words to me about the Carousel were "you need to stuff it in there good"...and now I do