Instructing at 11/10ths
08-29-2006, 03:02 PM
#46
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
PSM is a matter of approach;
It is a two-edged sword. By and large I view it as a positive for most drivers, up to a certain point. That point is a little past where the car starts to move around and the driver is ready to learn how to mitigate it.
Using the PSM to illustrate mistakes that rookies make and don't realize is a valuable tool if the instructor siezes upon it and hammers it home every time it activates. In some sense, you can have a student of minimal gift push to the point of losing it without quite having to worry that they don't have the skill to save it. They will then learn where that point is, and either stay below it forever, or hopefully develope enough of a sense of where it is to not be afraid of that Great Unknown.
If a student does not possess The Gift, PSM will keep you out of the weeds as you sit in the right seat and waste your time toodling around while they never learn anything (it happens). Hopefully, the novelty will wear off and they will move on to something else. For those that do have the potential - to whatever degree - they will have the opportunity to embrace it and learn to driver swiftly around it.
Until the point where they are ready for the low advanced group, perhaps - usually Black - it will be useful. Beyond that point - where the driver needs to learn real car control - PSM is going to be a hinderance.
It is a two-edged sword. By and large I view it as a positive for most drivers, up to a certain point. That point is a little past where the car starts to move around and the driver is ready to learn how to mitigate it.
Using the PSM to illustrate mistakes that rookies make and don't realize is a valuable tool if the instructor siezes upon it and hammers it home every time it activates. In some sense, you can have a student of minimal gift push to the point of losing it without quite having to worry that they don't have the skill to save it. They will then learn where that point is, and either stay below it forever, or hopefully develope enough of a sense of where it is to not be afraid of that Great Unknown.
If a student does not possess The Gift, PSM will keep you out of the weeds as you sit in the right seat and waste your time toodling around while they never learn anything (it happens). Hopefully, the novelty will wear off and they will move on to something else. For those that do have the potential - to whatever degree - they will have the opportunity to embrace it and learn to driver swiftly around it.
Until the point where they are ready for the low advanced group, perhaps - usually Black - it will be useful. Beyond that point - where the driver needs to learn real car control - PSM is going to be a hinderance.
08-29-2006, 03:04 PM
#47
Originally Posted by Phokaioglaukos
One of my friends who will soon move to Black noted last week that his PSM light was on virtually all the time as he circulated Summit Point. That surprised me as I would have expected him to have had PSM turned off.
One should be able to drive Summit Point very hard without triggering PSM at all, even if you leave it fully on. If you are sliding the car so much that you are consistently exceeding a slip angle of 7 degrees, then you are not driving the car as fast as you could (or so that is what I have always been taught).
caveat: trailbraking could trigger it, but that is a known limitation
08-29-2006, 03:40 PM
#48
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by }{arlequin
it would be a much safer (track)world if everyone learned to drive in an SC or earlier 911, equipped w/ steelies and 185/60-15's in all season radials
(I suppose I'm not a real man!)I bet back in the 70's, in the days of pre-internet and pre-PSM, there were many a discussion around the racetrack regarding how much the modern aids like power steering, power brakes and (egad!) ABS are making it much worse for instructors to teach track driving! The more things change, the more they stay the same...
Regarding PSM for beginners - I think that the sooner a driver learns what car control is all about, the better. Now I'm not advocating for a green student to go ***** to the wall with all aids turned off right out of the box - if you've got the aids, certainly use them! But one should also learn ASAP how to drive without them as well! I really think drivers new to DE/track should attend an autocross or two, or a car control clinic if such a program is available to them. That allows the student to learn how their car reacts when pushed to the limits in a relatively safe environment.
-Z
08-29-2006, 03:50 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
My vote is no PSM on a dry track with street tires. Wet track, I request students to turn it on. PSM is much less invasive than say BMW's system, but it still hides driver flaws when learning. I tried driving the Nurburgring a 2 weeks ago in the rain (take the Glen in the rain and multiply by 3 the level of slip and danger) with DSC turned on in a 330i and it put me one foot off of the first three apexes, next straight, reached over and turned it completely off (2006 model allows this while driving!!!). Car moved alot more, but hit the apex every time. I think it is a great aid for the daily drive and adverse weather with novice driving, but for track time, alot of learning is missed out on early and bad habits are hard to remove. We had a very fast Black/Red group driver in a 996TT shoot off the hairpin at Pocono South last year after 'turning off his PSM" for the first time.
08-29-2006, 03:51 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
But that is exactly where the instructor comes in. As an instructor, you should be able to feel the activation of PSM. If you do, and the student doesn't react, then you should have a little conversation:
................................................
................................................
When you get to the point where you experience it with a student who doesn't even understand PSM to begin with, and has little understanding of what it is doing for him/her, I think you too will find it frustrating. Not impossible, just difficult.
08-29-2006, 03:53 PM
#51
Originally Posted by Bull
Of course! And I'm fairly familiar how to hold a discussion with a Student. I wish the "well, you just need to dicuss it with them" approached worked in every case.
When you get to the point where you experience it with a student who doesn't even understand PSM to begin with, and has little understanding of what it is doing for him/her, I think you too will find it frustrating. Not impossible, just difficult.
When you get to the point where you experience it with a student who doesn't even understand PSM to begin with, and has little understanding of what it is doing for him/her, I think you too will find it frustrating. Not impossible, just difficult.
P.S. It is far from my intention to become the defender of all things electronic. no way. I just think PSM issue gets overblown. You can deal with it. Sure, the older cars did not have PSM, but the older cars also didn't have 325-400+ HP, cost 100K +, and be capable of 140mph plus at VIR, WGI etc. . . in the hands of a NOVICE, many of whom are not even certain themselves whether or not they have "the Gift." All I am saying is that, if I were an instructor, I would not want to have an off in a stock car without a cage, race seats, harnesses, etc . . . so I would not be upset at all that the car has PSM. I would actually be much more nervous about getting into a GT3 in the hands of a novice.
08-29-2006, 04:33 PM
#52
Nordschleife Master
Having driven the exact same car with & without PSM (2 986Ss), I find it only useful in the rain. On a dry track it is incredibly invasive for more than an intermediate level driver. You go haulin' into a turn, and the Please Save Me computer decides to cut the gas and/or apply the brakes. This is especially true if the car has more of a track setup, but is even true in street trim. It has nothing to do with smoothness, just speed. The issue is PSM cannot handle above a certain slip angle before it tries to slow you down. That is fine for a novice, but just ain't gonna cut it for anyone else.
For a novice, PSM is a great tool. Helps to keep a very expensive car off the armco, and tells you when you messed up (as novice drivers don't generate much slip angle at all...). In the rain, PSM is awesome regardless of level.
Now after a novice has progressed a bit, it is useful to drive sans PSM. Actually, I personally think driving different cars is all part of the growth experience.
For a novice, PSM is a great tool. Helps to keep a very expensive car off the armco, and tells you when you messed up (as novice drivers don't generate much slip angle at all...). In the rain, PSM is awesome regardless of level.
Now after a novice has progressed a bit, it is useful to drive sans PSM. Actually, I personally think driving different cars is all part of the growth experience.
08-29-2006, 05:29 PM
#53
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i find that the driver/student/novice is much more 'attentive' to what you tell them next, after they have a major pucker in their car and remove the connolly leather from deep within than if you tell them the same info but only after a light blinked a few times. it just doesn't send the same message and the important point that should be driven into the grey matter doesn't register as high on the importance scale. no one takes a blinking light as seriously as a perception of imminent danger to them and the car- as perceived by a beginner
08-29-2006, 05:59 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by }{arlequin
i find that the driver/student/novice is much more 'attentive' to what you tell them next, after they have a major pucker in their car and remove the connolly leather from deep within than if you tell them the same info but only after a light blinked a few times. it just doesn't send the same message and the important point that should be driven into the grey matter doesn't register as high on the importance scale. no one takes a blinking light as seriously as a perception of imminent danger to them and the car- as perceived by a beginner
08-29-2006, 07:00 PM
#55
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PSM? Frankly, I don't see what the big fuss is all about, particularly with students. If the student is purely green, then PSM is generally not "in play." If the student is more advanced, then it's a handy (but not foolproof) backup. As an instructor, I know pretty much whether the student is about to activate PSM and God only knows what else...and I don't like the feeling. Keeping the student from getting "out of shape" is one of the primary elements, but lousy things happen even to the best drivers.
When I'm driving by myself, then PSM is an entirely a different matter. When I drive and get a bit untidy, PSM has helped...generally though, I must admit, I hardly know it's there.
When I'm driving by myself, then PSM is an entirely a different matter. When I drive and get a bit untidy, PSM has helped...generally though, I must admit, I hardly know it's there.
08-29-2006, 08:42 PM
#56
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by agio
I must admit, I hardly know it's there.
08-30-2006, 10:28 AM
#57
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Y'know, here is something I do with my students who have PSM:
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell them that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell them that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!
08-30-2006, 10:35 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
Y'know, here is something I do with my students who have PSM:
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell tham that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell tham that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
08-30-2006, 10:39 AM
#59
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Exactly!
08-30-2006, 10:43 AM
#60
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
Y'know, here is something I do with my students who have PSM:
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell them that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!
Whenever PSM intrudes, I tell them that the computer just saved them from something major, and I bring them into the pits for a minute to discuss it, as if they had actually spun.
Seems to work wonders!