agio

Well, for me, I enjoy instructing the new Porsches. "In the day," when I instructed students with the then new C-2, I liked them so much, I went out and bought a new RSA. Later on after instructing students in the new BoxsterS, I ran out and bought a new BoxsterS. I now have instructed the new CaymanS and the 997. Hmmm.

Apex Rex

That's why you get one with out PSM and all that electronic stuff!

TD in DC

I disagree. I think that PSM is an outstanding learning tool. You would have to be braindead not to realize when PSM has kicked in and saved you. The braindead are the ones who need the protection the most.

If you are not braindead, then you will realize that PSM just saved you. Provided that you take that warning seriously (i.e., treat the activation of PSM as though you just spun), you can and will become a better driver without wadding up that shiny P-car.

If you are driving well, PSM will not kick in at all (OK, ok, so you cannot trailbrake or LFB, but for most intermediate and below students this is not a deal killer). If you make a mistake, PSM frequently will save your, and your instructor's, bacon, not to mention that shiny new p-car.

Now, for racing or the advanced groups, sure . . .

Wreck Me Otter

Oh...sorry...I thought this was a thread about GR....

Bull

Lots of "ifs" in your thought Todd. Some do, many don't.

TD in DC

But that is exactly where the instructor comes in. As an instructor, you should be able to feel the activation of PSM. If you do, and the student doesn't react, then you should have a little conversation:

"Did you feel that?"

"No, what was it?" (I personally would be highly suspect of anyone who actually said that.)

"That was an engagement of PSM and it just kept you from spinning. Do you know why it engaged?"

"No, I didn't even notice it." (Again, very suspect of braindamage at this point -- just joking, sort of.)"

"Well, it most likely was due to . . . [fill in the blanks] abrupt input (e.g., steering, brake, throttle)."

Now, I will confess that there are two different types of PSM engagements. One is the "save the bacon" engagement that is triggered by a massive loss of traction. For this type of engagement, the car typically "jerks" back into line. It is really incredible what PSM can do.

The other type can be subtle, and it is not always clear whether the engagement was due to driver error. In my 996, the PSM light would occassionally flicker (without any other perceptible engagement -- no jerk) when going over madness at Mid-Ohio. During these moments, neither the instructor nor I could identify any errors on my part to cause the flickering light. Nonetheless, I was aware enough to notice it, and the mere fact that the light flickered sparked a very constructive conversation.

Now, it is true that PSM robs drivers of learning skid recovery skills, serious trailbraking and LFB. That said, I am not sure I would sacrifice the training wheels offered by PSM merely so that a beginning or intermediate student would have the opportunity to learn to recover from a massive loss of traction, serious trailbraking and LFB. Advanced drivers? Sure, there is much to be learned without PSM, or even ABS for that matter. I thought I was great at braking until I bought a car without ABS and had to learn all over again. Now when I go back to ABS I am even better.

If I ever do become an instructor, I will welcome PSM in a student's car, and I will request that they leave it on.

Z-man

Therein lies the problem. While PSM can certainly help 'save the bacon' in many situations, it still cannot defy the laws of physics. And typically, the more 'PSM saved the bacon' events a driver experiences, the more confident he or she becomes in the car's abilities (not their own ability).

Thus, at some point, PSM will eventually say, "Save 'yer OWN bacon. I can't!" At that point, the driver will be well over the edge of the precipice, without any safety net, and since PSM has been keeping things in order up to that point, said driver will also have very few tools in his 'driving bag' to rely on to help save his bacon and his sheet metal.

-Z-man.

Phokaioglaukos

Although my car does not have PSM and I have never experienced it, I am with Z-Man on this. Those little errors that my car tells me about have, I think, taught me more about what to do differently than a flickering PSM light would. I hope to have learned enough from the little errors so that I don't get to a big error without the skill to deal with it.

RedlineMan

PSM is a matter of approach;

It is a two-edged sword. By and large I view it as a positive for most drivers, up to a certain point. That point is a little past where the car starts to move around and the driver is ready to learn how to mitigate it.

Using the PSM to illustrate mistakes that rookies make and don't realize is a valuable tool if the instructor siezes upon it and hammers it home every time it activates. In some sense, you can have a student of minimal gift push to the point of losing it without quite having to worry that they don't have the skill to save it. They will then learn where that point is, and either stay below it forever, or hopefully develope enough of a sense of where it is to not be afraid of that Great Unknown.

If a student does not possess The Gift, PSM will keep you out of the weeds as you sit in the right seat and waste your time toodling around while they never learn anything (it happens). Hopefully, the novelty will wear off and they will move on to something else. For those that do have the potential - to whatever degree - they will have the opportunity to embrace it and learn to driver swiftly around it.

Until the point where they are ready for the low advanced group, perhaps - usually Black - it will be useful. Beyond that point - where the driver needs to learn real car control - PSM is going to be a hinderance.

}{arlequin

it would be a much safer (track)world if everyone learned to drive in an SC or earlier 911, equipped w/ steelies and 185/60-15's in all season radials

JayP

The group I run with/instruct for has included on the report card if the car has some sort of traction control or stability system and if it was on or off.

Turned into a big issue of when or should an instructor suggest turning aids off. Even got to the point of putting an instructor back into a previously solo-ed driver if the driver wants to lap without aids.

Phokaioglaukos

One of my friends who will soon move to Black noted last week that his PSM light was on virtually all the time as he circulated Summit Point. That surprised me as I would have expected him to have had PSM turned off.

Renn 951

One other concern with the newer cars is the side air bags. At a recent event in our region a 996 spun off track, hit the tire wall on the passenger side, and the side air bag broke the Instructor's arm in two places and put a nasty cut in his hand. We often use the armrest and attached grab handle to brace ourselves while riding with students, especially if they don't have a harness to keep you planted in the seat. The lesson from this incident was that with a tight grip on that handle the side air bag can do you some serious damage.

BobbyC

I'm with TD on this one. Any student with half a brain and willingness to learn will find PSM an invaluable tool. And if a student without half a brain chooses to use it as a crutch then he/she deserves what's coming

TD in DC

You see, I think the split on this goes largely along the lines of those who have had PSM and those who have not.

Those who have never had PSM themselves frequently have the misperception that you cannot have a little error with PSM. I am telling you that the "flickering light" type of activation is extraordinarily rare. The most common type is that your car starts to slide and if you yourself do not do anything to correct it, then, and only then PSM will cut gas to the throttle and "jerk" the car -- oftentimes violently -- back in control. You still have the little errors with PSM, and you can still learn how to deal with the little errors. Better yet, you can learn to drive without having a little error to begin with. The ONLY thing PSM robs you of is the chance to test your mettle in the event of a BIG error. With respect to green and blue group drivers, I personally just do not think that it is a necessary part of the experience. You have so many other things to learn, that major recovery just isn't necessary in my opinion.

For advanced/intermediate to advanced, I agree entirely that PSM and all other forms of electronics interfere. No argument there.