Bull

I meant T8, of course!

RedlineMan

Local Knowledge, my boy;

The Heel is one of the tougher turns there in the wet. Always has been. If you go to a pro race, at least 70% of the wet moments and wrecks will be there. The braking zone is famously unstable. Fortunately, the runoff allows you to just go straight and toss it in the stones if need be. So too are the transitions from the cement to pavement and back again getting wacky. Unfortunately, the track only offers you a nice trip into the Armco on the right after the apex. You're only real chance is to recognize it really early, straighten signficiantly, brake on-surface, and try to tip-toe up the grass on the right before the Armco gets too close.

I make extra sure NOT to let my students run on the cement in 8. You need to do a pretty drastic rain line there. Turn in is WELL PAST the cement arc with a very large input to gain significant change in the cars direction, and then an equally significant unwind of the wheel. At this point you can then CROSS the cement as close to perpendicular as you can manage, and exit well INSIDE the cement arc, passing at least a full car width INSIDE the usual trackout point.

The cement used to be AWESOME in the rain. With some spots getting pretty polished, it is now fairly psycho.

Phokaioglaukos

John's advice is to be taken seriously, here as elsewhere. The cement is ice-like in the wet, and takes much longer than the asphalt to provide adhesion again again in drying conditions. I had a significant power-one oversteer exiting T7 and again in T8 when the asphalt gave good grip but the cement did not.

Matt Romanowski

I think the Glen is much different than many tracks - offering mucho different conditions at different parts of the track. The weekend we had rain in the boot and dry track everywhere else. The coupled with changing conditions makes things very interesting as an instructor....

I find students have a real tough time being able to gauge appropriate speed in the rain. They are either very conservative (easier to work with) or overly enthusiastic (a real handful). Overall, I try to get them to start nice and slow with very early braking and then very slowly work up to quicker speeds. I try to do all this at speeds appropriate to the conditions in a manner that we never lose control.

Overall, I like teaching in the rain. I think it's sort of like a wet skidpad - it lets you get the feel and mechanics of driving at a reduced speed.

Just my $.005.

Matt

agio

This sounds as though your experience defines "s--t happens." Other than what has been discussed already, keeping the student from "over shifting" around a wet track; accelerating full bore out of the turns; generally, being "un-smooth" with steering, shifting, braking and acceleration all can lead to an unhappy finish.
Yes, driving the rain line is a great eductional experience, but keep in mind, if the student is not happy driving in the rain, then leave it alone...don't push. If an instructor (and, I'm certainly not saying you did) kind of "insists" on having the student drive in situations which are of concern to the student such as rain, then an added risk falls upon the instructor...just my .02

Matt Romanowski

I don't want my comments misunderstood. I would never make a student drive if they were not comfortable. Dry or rain. I think this is one of the most important things of instructing. Everyone comes to the track with a different goal / priority and we have to be aware of that.

Matt

agio

No, I wasn't necessarily refering to your instructing. You made a great point about instructing under less than ideal conditions and it simply turned on a "light" for me.

mitch236

Hopefully, when I get back to the Glen, there won't be any rain at all!! Hey Agio, are you going to the Glen next year?

David K.

Bingo!.......

Veloce Raptor

Very true.

Z-man

'Zactly what happened.
The driver was barely on the throttle when the spin started. Didn't lift when the initial spin occurred. And tried to straighten the car as much as possible. But like you say, that concrete is mightly slippery in the wet.
This was the line the student was taking - and it seems the slip started as we were crossing the slippery concrete patch.

I'm beginning to wonder if John (Redlineman) was sitting in the back seat with us...

The student was an intermediate driver, and wanted to run in the rain. As the rain started coming down harder, the driver was telling me that we should go in. I told the driver it was their call. I did state that I was comfortable with their driving - the driver was smooth and I didn't feel in any danger of the driver losing control of the car. Of course, 30 seconds later, we spun. Like you said, poopie happens.

-Z

RedlineMan

Hmmm...

The odd thing is that not all the cement is polished. Only certain spots. It used to be universally fabulous when wet. Now, for instance, there is a nasty slick spot just past the apex to about half way out to track out coming out of The Toe. Even I can brake traction there!

8 is just wierd. Like I said, I take an extremely late turn in, really squaring off the turn in. This means turning very sharply all in one small spot. Then I can accelerate fairly hard out of the turn, crossing the cement quickly, not relying on it for grip.

Anytime you've let the rear get away from you in those situations, you've been slow on the draw. It's not snap oversteer, it's slow recognition! Live & Learn. It's a tough lesson that way.

Veloce Raptor

Ugh. Racing there in the rain, even with Hoosier wets, sucks.

Ed Newman

Does anyone else find that instructing in the newer cars (Cayman/997) is MUCH harder since the passenger (instructor) can feel a damn thing!

Bull

Yes! And the student often thinks they are doing fine as the car gets them through a turn.....