TD in DC

No, you probably described it better than I did. You are 100% correct that I consciously waited for the car to hookup again. I wasn't worried YET about making track out. I thought I was still going to be ok. What DID catch me off guard was the transformation of a neutral/understeering four wheel drift to an oversteer spin with the rear coming around. I have never had one type of slide or spin convert into another before.

I swear that the moment the rear started to rotate, I was opening the wheel . . . honestly. I really do have a good feel for what the car is doing. The correction took two phases. Usually the car "snaps" the rear end around. This time the rotation was relatively slow, so I thought a relatively mild opening of the wheel (i.e., straight) would be sufficient (I was trying to be gentle with inputs since I knew with that speed at that corner I was now dancing with the devil). When I opened the wheel up straight I realized that the rear was going to keep on coming around, so I furiously tried to open the wheel all the way to lock. Of course, at this point, it was way, way, way too late to save. I DO think I saved the car from doing 720s down the track. I had only rotated about 160 when I hit the wall. Small comfort that.

TD in DC

Yes, I feel your pain. I have been pushing my own limits as a driver by experimenting with different turns. I agree that not much is to be gained from an overall lap time from pushing in T10 too much, but that was not my overall objective that day. In retrospect, there are probably other turns that are safer for pushing yourself . . . but . . . if you never try you will never know.

Larry Herman

Try driving a 914 on street tires, 1980s vintage yet!

RJay

BTW, in my overanalytical haste, I forgot to express my sympathy, glad to hear that you were OK and the car not a total loss. I've yet to join the club, but as much as I hate to admit it, likely its just a matter of time. Thanks for sharing, its takes guts.

TD in DC

John,

I am trying to really consider what you are saying before I respond fully, because I appreciate that you have much more experience. That said, I have two thoughts on your comments.

I honestly do not think that my apex was much earlier at all than it had been all weekend. I was using a long apex, whether that was good or not. The visual reference points upon which you are relying to conclude that my apex for the crash lap was much earlier are misleading. The difference is that my apex was lower and closer to the curb, which was extremely deliberate on my part. Check out the data and you will see what I am talking about.


The other point is that my line was absolutely not meandering. I may have made an error. I may have been stupid. Fine. I can't change reality. However, I was NOT sloppy, lazy, or meandering. My line was very, very deliberate. Again, see the data.

Gary R.

Does anyone have a blimp-view video of this?

TD - let it go and get back out there as soon as possible. You will make yourself nuts trying to pick all this apart over and over and over.. You have a TON of varied input, I hope WHEN my "side-trip" occurs everyone is as helpful to me!

bobt993

TD,
Cliff note the experience to embed a solution in your head. Larry is really good at finding driver "ticks". Have someone like him ride with you or "Larry" himself. I had a fellow driver say his name is "Rex" for neutrality sake. Rex is pretty fast, but has some bad habits that upset his car. Most solo drivers never get further instruction and Rex was a good example of the digression for this circumstance. Two years ago, I twisted his arm into letting Larry ride with him at VIR. After the session he came in a little bummed, but in all, positive. Asked what happen. "Larry said I have inherent flaw in my driving" . Then explained how he pauses after threshold braking at turn in. No fluid motion. So Larry did not candy coat it, but he vastly improved his driving after that. The point is your already fast and driving at an advanced level. I looked at the video and read Larry's assessment, then Colin's and both are spot on. Digest it, have one of them go out with you and your next plateau of driving level is right there to build on again. And stop looking at the damn graphs!!! LOL

Professor Helmüt Tester

I tune back in here every now and then, without having studiously read all previous postings...so I'll just interject this and step away again for a while:

"Do not treat the concrete patches at WGI like your driveway."

The concrete patches were laid out by people who had/have never driven a race car in their whole lives. They were placed in/around areas where big heavy behemoths tore up the asphalt...no other reason. If you're a competent roadracer, you're hardly ever '4 wheels on' at the patches. Yes...you're doing diagonals across them...and occasionally are intentionally 'all 4 on' the patches, but THEY ARE NOT YOUR DAMN DRIVEWAY. The phrase we all hear is 'hit the apex'...well...if you aren't constantly rubbing your sidewall on the apex curbing, then you're giving up valuable radius...sometimes described as 'driving like a ******'.

T10...you should be sticking your inside tires all the way to the curbing, which will have them on the asphalt for the much of the 'middle third' of the corner.

Same lesson in every other corner, too.

And now back to your regular programming...

Larry Herman

Don't argue with the Professor


at least not on this one.

TD in DC

Thanks all. Not trying to argue with anyone . . . trying to listen to everyone, and trying to learn as much as possible and, believe it or not, I am not beating myself up at all.

Sadly, apart from actually driving, the next best thing is thinking and talking about driving. So, in a sick way, I actually enjoy this . . . I guarantee you I make leaps and strides of improvement by doing this . . .

Oh yeah, even if I don't agree 100% with people all the time, I am nonetheless grateful that they even take the time to try to help me learn. Thanks all!

38D

Yes, more good advice.

Racerrob

Very interesting dialog, I have enjoyed it. I do agree with the conclusions about your not opening the wheel and I think the engineer may be right about how your car is handling. I have about 15 years in a NA 944 and did have a "big one" at the Glen years ago so I know what you are going through. As you are aware the 944 is very easy to drive fast and is very forgiving. I think, however, that that can lull you into a false sense of security sometimes. I have learned (the hard way) that, like most cars, you must stay ahead of them or they will bite you. With more seat time and experience at various tracks you will develop a sense of just what your car will and will not do in certain corners. It is very easy for me to play armchair quarterback after watching your video but I would have been opening the wheel coming through that apex knowing that if I didn't it was going to become very interesting. I really commend you for your attitude with this and am glad to see that you got back on the horse. With that said, can you please find another class as we dont need any more competition in the "I" class Good luck to you!

RedlineMan

Todd;

Data won't tell me a thing. I can't read it. I seem to be swimming against the tide here, but I am not changing my opinion one bit. Nothing anyone can say will sway me from the opinion that you turned in WAY too early. Whether you failed to react early enough to what this presented you is a seperate matter to me, and a compounding factor, not a causal one.

This is not a long apex corner for me. It is a classic short clip past a very short apex, and I try to make it slightly late apex as well. At the speed my car is going into 10, I see no advantage to initiating a ton of sideload early by turning early. I want a late and decisive turn in, and a very straight exit line - quite as parallel with the exit curb as I can manufacture. I try my darndest to NEVER touch the exit curb. Most of the time I succeed.

I know what my car feels like in that turn. If you look at my session that I sent you, you will see the fairly small but decidedly deliberate turn in motion I use there. If I steer in like you are in your clip, my car scares the crap out of me. It floats, never really taking a set or even feeling like it is connected to the road. THIS is what I meant by you "meandering" in. When I do it my way, the rear of the car steps out and bites firmly, and EARLY. I know right away what I have, and can make the tight apex the Professor talks about. That is also a crucial point to surviving this turn.

I know there are many here that take that turn quite quickly - Larry, Charley, Colin, for sure. Whatever they are doing is working for them. I know what works for me. They aint driving "your car". I am.

Is your butt fat enough that I could get mine in your seat?

TD in DC

John,

I think you may potentially have misunderstood my comment. I am open to the idea that a later turn in and apex is a faster and safer way through the corner. Trust me that I will be experimenting a lot. I am also open to the idea that a more brisk turn in at a later turn in point is faster. Fine. I will experiment with that as well. I remember you doing that when I rode with you last year.

I value and listen to everyone's feedback. I accept nobody's feedback as gospel truth. I take everything back . . .mull it over . . . and then experiment the next time I go to the track. I value all of the comments because it helps me to focus my thinking.

My comments were about two specific points. You compared two pictures to suggest that the apex I took on the lap when I wrecked was way earlier than the apex I took on the other laps. That is factually incorrect. If I was early on the lap when I wrecked, I was also early on several laps, including many when I made it through on full throttle. Period. End of story. That doesn't mean that a later apex wouldn't be better, but it does mean that it is simply not true that I took a "way earlier apex and turn in" on the lap when I wrecked than I did on other laps. And I call BS on the fact that you can't understand the chart I posted.. It is extremely simple. It is a plan view of my lines as captured by GPS positioning. Each line represents one lap during the session, and the bolded line represents the lap when I wrecked. I was sunday driving the other laps, so I wasn't as concerned with rubbing the curb with my sidewalls. On the lap when I wrecked, since I took it full throttle, I made certain that I rubbed the curb with my sidewall, and I did. That is why the two pictures you pointed out looked different . . . not because of an "earlier" apex.

Second, and this may be terminology, I can't stand the word "meandering." To me, that word means "to follow a winding or intricate course" or "to wander aimlessly or casually without urgent destination." A lot of drivers do that on the track. I am NOT one of those drivers, and I didn't do it this time. You could be right that a more brisk and abrupt turn in would be better for my car. That doesn't mean that I was meandering. Nothing about what I did was meandering. I put the car exactly where I wanted it, at least until right after the apex. Maybe that place was wrong. Maybe there is a much better way to do it. But my driving was not the result of "aimless wandering."

Of course my seat is big enough to accomodate you, and you can drove my car the next time we are at the track together I assure you that I am one of the more attentive and observant drivers with whom you will ever ride

Finally, I am serious when I say that I am grateful for the feedback. Don't take my refusal to agree with every statement as disrespect.

TD

TD in DC