M758

I like a manual steering sytem (manual rack or unpower rack) for the reason of feedback.

I like the extra sensation I get from the front tires when cornering. With a power rack I don't feel the front tires being as connected to the road find it more challenging to manage the traction or to correct oversteer. That said I have not driven with powersteering in a long time. Could I be faster with it? Maybe, maybe not.

Yes Chris and I are giving you conflicting information. Which one is right? I am not sure. I fully realize that Chris as more racing experrince and chassis tunning experince than I will ever have. He knows his stuff. However I have more seat time in a 944 spec type than he does. I don't think that means I some how have a better set-up or am faster driver in spec type car. It does mean we are approaching the set-up from different angles.

Franking set-up the 944 spec rules years ago this was on thing we wanted to allow for.

Want manual or powersteer? Fine do what YOU like best.
Want 250, 300, 350, 400 lbs front springs? Fine chose what you like best.
Want 26mm , 28mm, 30mm t-bars? Fine chose what you like best
Want Turbo sways, 968 M030 sways, welt sways? Fine chose what you like the best.

Since the class started in 2002 there has yet to be one clear best set-up for a 944 spec. My feeling is you compromise in one area to improve in another. Each driver is different and a naturally better in some area vs others. The freedom of the set-up allows each driver to pick and chose what workse best for them and their style.

Chris and I both agree that driver skill with 944 spec type car is the biggest thing that will make you fast. You need to be comfortable with an ustable car and will win races by how fast you can go into a corner and still make it out fast. That is to say the fast guys are make their speed on maximizing their corner entry and that means managing oversteer. I believe their are many ways to get there, but you MUST get there to be fast.

kurt M

Get Ivan from IMA to drive it. He knows how to drive the last nanosecond out a NA 944 and is a wrench to boot. He can translate "feel" into "what to do next".

Larry Herman

Ivan Arzola? Having raced against him, I don't know about his "feel" for a car, but he certainly drives with *****.

Premier Motorsp

Joe P has had a great deal of success in 944 spec, so his input is pretty valuable.

I would expect that Joe and I are coming at it from different angles, and arriving roughly at the same place.

Joe's setup almost certainly is going to produce more front end grip. I know he is a believer in no understeer, so I have to assume his car is not unbalanced. His Welt front bar is a good workaround for the lack of LSD too.

His setup should be better than mine in the following areas:

More front end grip, maybe more rear end grip.
Better traction
More responsiveness and controllability.

His setup should be worse than in mine in following areas:

Driving ease. His 'window' is probably pretty small, especially on entry
Bumps. The big front bar is going to hurt him here.
Braking. Also hurt by the big front bar and loose front springs
Tire temp and life. Although overheating the tires isn't likely with 160hp

Really the main reason I make the suggestions that I do is that I feel my setup gives a fun, safe car to the entry level driver. Back in 2002, most of the spec guys were entry level or close to it.

99.9% of the time I prefer stiff, reponsive cars. In 944 spec we had to use crappy shocks and no heavier than 30mm bars (no coils). I felt if the cars had to be soft, make them soft and take advantage of the few good things soft does for you. If you could run real shocks and springs my recommendations would be totally different.

Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports

TD in DC

Thanks All!

Ivan was the instructor who climbed in my car with me the very first session ever in the 944 at a totally new track. He was with me for my first spin. He was the perfect instructor for that because he started laughing with me rather than chastising me. Not a bad idea.

I definitely need to work on corner entry speed. As a holdover from my 996 days, I still overslow entering corners, but I am getting better.

fatbillybob

Oddjob,

How does the rainline differ from the dry line? I'm from california....

Van

I'm going to dust off this thread... a lot of great things were said (especially comments by M758 (Joe) and Redlineman (John)) - but it was a while ago. I wondered if any of their opinions about sway bar and spring rates have changed over the years.

One of the reasons I ask is because of the on-going debate of stiff springs - soft sway bar vs. soft springs - stiff sway bar. I wonder if people have new experience or more opinions with 944s now.

Larry Herman

This is what defines whether or not you can run stiff springs (which I think that most suspension guys agree is faster most of the time); the shocks. If you cannot run race-quality adjustable shocks, then you cannot run stiff springs.

M758

I still run the same sring rates and sway bars. Over the year I have learned a few things, but the set-up has been mostly the same. I did lose time chasing unbalanced shocks (ie not same rate left to right).

The biggest change I groing form the RA-1 to the R888. The R888 needs less camber, about 1/2 degree less, and requires a more balanced setup since sliding the rears is bad with these tires. So I have been adjusting sway bars to add some understeer and it seems to be making the car better overall. I am also consiering replaceing my 350lbs springs with 400's. It really depends on how stiff I go with my front sway bar to get the balance I need for the R888s.

M758

Yep! We can run 400lbs max or maybe 450;'s before it becomes a waste since the shocks can't handle it. A that point you are faster on a softer spring rate. This is becaus we are running off the shelf Koni yellows. Nice units, but no means a "racing shock". Of course this is by design for our class.

schwank

Glad this got bumped as I made some major offseason changes and now find myself needing to make adjustments to cope.

I now run a Guard LSD, with yellow konis, 450lb front springs, 31mm hollow torsions, and 968 M030 sways. Last weekend I ran the 968 rear sway on full soft but a 951 26.8 front to try to balance the car. What I found was a great degree of corner entry understeer.As I applied throttle to overcome that I would get some tendency towards oversteer. I added the 450lb springs this year because I have a higher ride height and was trying to tune out dive under hard braking. That worked but I think those springs add to the understeer.

Really I want the car more neutral, mainly on corner entry to help me get cornering speeds up. I am OK with modulating the throttle to control the oversteer past the apex but definitely found myself fighting it a bit.

I no doubt believe I am the root cause of the issues, and that I need to learn the nature of the LSD. The car also needs to be lowered to the limits of the rules to get rid of some weight transfer which should help stability. But beyond that I am not sure where to start. When running the bigger springs, should I be running lesser rebound in the koni's? Based on past research it would seem that going to the 30mm front bar would exacerbate the entry understeer, not help, but some have told me otherwise.

Maybe I just need to give it to fordahl for some work! But I am trying to learn on my own, both for long term educational purposes, and personal pride.

333pg333

Joe, I remember when you first went to the R888's you were into the 40's hot psi, have you since lowered that pressure? What did you used to run with the RA1s incidentally? My mechanic who is still on RA1's on his 951 changed from 32 hot to about 38 hot last meet and beat his best time by about 2.5 secs and was pushing some GT3's real hard.

Also, I've recently wound up my rear rebound to full tight as the car was 'porpoising' for want of a better term. I haven't been on the track yet but on the road the word 'choppy' seems to come to mind when turning on some less than smooth corners. Any light to shed on this. Again a 951.

M758

I used to run at 38-39 hot on RA-1's. This gave me great wear, lap times and consistancy during run. I have been playing around with R888 all season (starting Jan 09) and have settled on 40-41 psi for for R888. I might go a tiny bit lower, but I feel I am close. The 48 worked interms of the tire did not do bad things, but 40 psi has more grip.


As for the choppy... Sounds like a poor balance on front vs rear damping rates allowing an osillation between front and rear. If only the rear is skipping then soften the rebound damping as it may be too still and not allowing the rear to move back fast enough to follow the road.