944/968 M030 Front hub-spindle failures
11-12-2005, 12:53 PM
#61
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This is one of some pictures that I have that shows where the hubs break, almost always thay break at the weakest point between the cut out areas, because the material obviously gets thin in that area. Even known cast hubs with large cut outs may also be weak in that area.
Stuttgart motors hubs are solid 7075 aircraft aluminum with studs already installed saving time and expense for our customers
stuttgartmotorsports.com
Stuttgartmotors@Alltel.net 859-255-7278
Stuttgart motors hubs are solid 7075 aircraft aluminum with studs already installed saving time and expense for our customers
stuttgartmotorsports.com
Stuttgartmotors@Alltel.net 859-255-7278
Last edited by Harley; 11-12-2005 at 04:35 PM.
11-12-2005, 03:58 PM
#62
Burning Brakes
OK - looks like the M030 solution is covered in two different ways. Good job to both the vendors!
Now - how about hubs for the rest of us non M030 guys - hint: Lots more cars w/o M030 than with ;-)
Now - how about hubs for the rest of us non M030 guys - hint: Lots more cars w/o M030 than with ;-)
11-15-2005, 08:36 AM
#64
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Some of the prior postings have asked that I post when I hear about PCA stock class legality for our hubs. So just a quick update to do that,... I have recieved an E-mail from Donna Amico, PCA Club Racing Technical and Rules Chairman, confirming that the Racer's Edge billet hubs will be allowed in PCA racing. I have copied her comments below.
"Karl,
Your hub is approved for PCA Club Racing in stock classes.
The hub is being approved on the basis of a significant number of known failures of the factory cast part. The accelerated fatigue caused by racing within the modifications allowed in PCA stock classes has created an unsafe condition with regard to the strength of the stock part. A hub failure can cause a significant crash, making this a safety issue rather than a reliability issue.
Regards,
Donna Amico
PCA Club Racing Technical and Rules Chairman"
Karl Poeltl
Racer's Edge Inc
"Karl,
Your hub is approved for PCA Club Racing in stock classes.
The hub is being approved on the basis of a significant number of known failures of the factory cast part. The accelerated fatigue caused by racing within the modifications allowed in PCA stock classes has created an unsafe condition with regard to the strength of the stock part. A hub failure can cause a significant crash, making this a safety issue rather than a reliability issue.
Regards,
Donna Amico
PCA Club Racing Technical and Rules Chairman"
Karl Poeltl
Racer's Edge Inc
11-15-2005, 09:35 AM
#65
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Over a month ago I applied for PCA approval of our new billet hub for racing, and sent materials to Donna Amico. She e-mailed me yesterday the full approval of our hubs use in PCA racing in stock classes. This is a copy of her e-mail.
Dan,
Your hub is approved for PCA racing in stock classes. Please send me your e-mail address and I was saying you the official " approval "letter, as sent as I get with other approval letters.
The hub is being approved on the bases of a significant number of know known failures of the factory cast part the. Accelerated the fatigue caused by racing within the modifications allowed in the PCA stock classes has created an unsafe condition with regard to the strength of the stock part.
I apologize for the length of time necessary to make this ruling, but PCA club racing was between technical and Rule Chairs at the time of your initial application.
I appreciate the time taken by Jim Child and Gary Grigsby in sharing their experiencees with the stock hub.
Regards,
Donna Amico
PCA club racing technical and rules Chairman.
For those of you who have asked a copy will be available, and win the official arrives a copy will be available to whoever ask for one.
Dan Puchalski
Stuttgart motor
Stuttgartmotorsports.com
NOTE; Thanks Gary Grigsby for testing all of our parts this last season, it's good to ride with the winner.
Dan,
Your hub is approved for PCA racing in stock classes. Please send me your e-mail address and I was saying you the official " approval "letter, as sent as I get with other approval letters.
The hub is being approved on the bases of a significant number of know known failures of the factory cast part the. Accelerated the fatigue caused by racing within the modifications allowed in the PCA stock classes has created an unsafe condition with regard to the strength of the stock part.
I apologize for the length of time necessary to make this ruling, but PCA club racing was between technical and Rule Chairs at the time of your initial application.
I appreciate the time taken by Jim Child and Gary Grigsby in sharing their experiencees with the stock hub.
Regards,
Donna Amico
PCA club racing technical and rules Chairman.
For those of you who have asked a copy will be available, and win the official arrives a copy will be available to whoever ask for one.
Dan Puchalski
Stuttgart motor
Stuttgartmotorsports.com
NOTE; Thanks Gary Grigsby for testing all of our parts this last season, it's good to ride with the winner.
11-20-2005, 04:28 PM
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Gentlemen/Ladies,
The #69 968 has tested extensively the Stuttgart billet hubs-after an abrupt failure at Putnam Park last summer. The Stuttgart hubs fit perfectly, use the stock bearings and races and studs. Initially, we removed the hubs from the car after each event-inspecting the stress areas, bearings races and the grease. The spindles have not been a source of problem(s) on the 69 car.
We've seen exemplary performance with these hubs, and I expect them to be the last hubs ever on the car. The peace of mind is also significant, as hub failure is eliminated from the (lengthy) list of items that I have to worry about during a race weekend.
My impression is that, if you've not yet had a hub failure-you will, or, you simply are not pushing the car hard enough/consistently enough in the corners to stress the running gear.
Whichever hub is on your track car-use the best wheel bearing grease and make inspecting these parts a regular part of preparation for track weekends.
Gary Grigsby
The #69 968 has tested extensively the Stuttgart billet hubs-after an abrupt failure at Putnam Park last summer. The Stuttgart hubs fit perfectly, use the stock bearings and races and studs. Initially, we removed the hubs from the car after each event-inspecting the stress areas, bearings races and the grease. The spindles have not been a source of problem(s) on the 69 car.
We've seen exemplary performance with these hubs, and I expect them to be the last hubs ever on the car. The peace of mind is also significant, as hub failure is eliminated from the (lengthy) list of items that I have to worry about during a race weekend.
My impression is that, if you've not yet had a hub failure-you will, or, you simply are not pushing the car hard enough/consistently enough in the corners to stress the running gear.
Whichever hub is on your track car-use the best wheel bearing grease and make inspecting these parts a regular part of preparation for track weekends.
Gary Grigsby
11-20-2005, 05:39 PM
#67
Good to hear from you on this, Gary.
I completely agree with your conclusions on the failing mode and the fact that loadings are the critical issue. This is not something that was seen in street applications or general DE use, but pushing these cars hard exposes the weakness. This is especially true for Stock class cars that are at or above PCA weight. Mine runs 3375# [with driver] at full 944SuperCup penalty weight.
Also agree that hub inspection and maintenance should be standard procedure for individual race prep - not once per season, but before every race. There are two ways to get religion on this:
- Listen to those that have BTDT
- Experience the consequences of a high speed hub failure on track.
Guess every driver in the 'at risk' group needs to make that call.
FWIW, a number of local 944SuperCup runners were very interested in Dan's hubs after seeing them at the Summit Point PCA club race. When the group contacted Dan the best price he would offer was $600 each and that was accompanied by a warning that the price would be going up once he had distributor deals lined up with CDOC and others. At $1200 a pair, the group buy did not go forward. Several of us felt that the price was a little steep.
Now that Racers Edge has released a similar billet piece at a realistic price, its highly likely that at least some of the local group will go with Karl's product.
I completely agree with your conclusions on the failing mode and the fact that loadings are the critical issue. This is not something that was seen in street applications or general DE use, but pushing these cars hard exposes the weakness. This is especially true for Stock class cars that are at or above PCA weight. Mine runs 3375# [with driver] at full 944SuperCup penalty weight.
Also agree that hub inspection and maintenance should be standard procedure for individual race prep - not once per season, but before every race. There are two ways to get religion on this:
- Listen to those that have BTDT
- Experience the consequences of a high speed hub failure on track.
Guess every driver in the 'at risk' group needs to make that call.
FWIW, a number of local 944SuperCup runners were very interested in Dan's hubs after seeing them at the Summit Point PCA club race. When the group contacted Dan the best price he would offer was $600 each and that was accompanied by a warning that the price would be going up once he had distributor deals lined up with CDOC and others. At $1200 a pair, the group buy did not go forward. Several of us felt that the price was a little steep.
Now that Racers Edge has released a similar billet piece at a realistic price, its highly likely that at least some of the local group will go with Karl's product.
Last edited by APKhaos; 11-20-2005 at 07:02 PM.
11-21-2005, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Marks
OK - looks like the M030 solution is covered in two different ways. Good job to both the vendors!
Now - how about hubs for the rest of us non M030 guys - hint: Lots more cars w/o M030 than with ;-)
Now - how about hubs for the rest of us non M030 guys - hint: Lots more cars w/o M030 than with ;-)
11-21-2005, 10:46 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by Gary Grigsby
use the best wheel bearing grease and make inspecting these parts a regular part of preparation for track weekends.
1. What is the best grease?
2. What is the best inspection process?
11-21-2005, 04:08 PM
#70
Burning Brakes
Not an expert on this - but I believe that the M030 hubs are "longer" than the standard hubs. Meaning that the rotor mounting would be displaced outward from the location on the non-M030; Therefore, your rotor wouldn't be located correctly vis-a-vis your caliper.
If/when someone makes non-M030 hubs - count me in for 2.
If/when someone makes non-M030 hubs - count me in for 2.
11-21-2005, 05:45 PM
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[QUOTE=Matt Marks]Not an expert on this - but I believe that the M030 hubs are "longer" than the standard hubs. Meaning that the rotor mounting would be displaced outward from the location on the non-M030; Therefore, your rotor wouldn't be located correctly vis-a-vis your caliper.QUOTE]
Does anyone know if this is true?
Does anyone know if this is true?
11-21-2005, 06:12 PM
#72
[QUOTE=Matt Marks]Not an expert on this - but I believe that the M030 hubs are "longer" than the standard hubs. Meaning that the rotor mounting would be displaced outward from the location on the non-M030; Therefore, your rotor wouldn't be located correctly vis-a-vis your caliper.[QUOTE]
Matt is correct. The difference is a matter of millimeters, but its enough to ruin your day if you are trying to put M030 hubs on an non-M030 spec car.
Matt is correct. The difference is a matter of millimeters, but its enough to ruin your day if you are trying to put M030 hubs on an non-M030 spec car.
11-21-2005, 06:59 PM
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The difference in the MO3O and NON-MO3O hubs is that the mounting surface to the wheel is thicker onthe MO3O part. When on the spindle, the MO3O hub is a few mm's farther out.
The grease that I use is a synthetic-Redline or equivalent-don't cut corners here! THe #69 car gets new grease before each event-all bearings/races/seals are inspected and replaced if there's ANY question (cheap insurance-replacing grease/bearings between sessions is no fun-been there/done that!).
The Stuttgart hub is a work of art-I've had no surprises. THe grease has not been as browned/blackened as it was with the stock units-presumably due to the better heat dissipation of a solid part/larger heat sink. The penalty is 0.7 pound weight over the stock part. The failures that I've personally seen have all been fracturing of the stock hubs as in the pictures above-this is where the casted part is the thinnest. Presumably, the factory parts are done in this manner for ease of production as well as weight reduction.
The cost of the Stuttgart hubs are not set-as far as I know-and will be determined on the volume produced-more made=less cost per unit.
We've run these hubs on the #69 car with permission from Donna Amico at Putnam Park, Summit Point, Carolina and at testing days in between and have had excellent, trouble free results. I fully expect them to be the last hubs I ever need to place on the car.
Resist the temptation to cut corners with any portion of the cars' running gear/brakes/maintenance. An ounce of prevention here is effort/time/money well spent and will minimize failures over the season.
The grease that I use is a synthetic-Redline or equivalent-don't cut corners here! THe #69 car gets new grease before each event-all bearings/races/seals are inspected and replaced if there's ANY question (cheap insurance-replacing grease/bearings between sessions is no fun-been there/done that!).
The Stuttgart hub is a work of art-I've had no surprises. THe grease has not been as browned/blackened as it was with the stock units-presumably due to the better heat dissipation of a solid part/larger heat sink. The penalty is 0.7 pound weight over the stock part. The failures that I've personally seen have all been fracturing of the stock hubs as in the pictures above-this is where the casted part is the thinnest. Presumably, the factory parts are done in this manner for ease of production as well as weight reduction.
The cost of the Stuttgart hubs are not set-as far as I know-and will be determined on the volume produced-more made=less cost per unit.
We've run these hubs on the #69 car with permission from Donna Amico at Putnam Park, Summit Point, Carolina and at testing days in between and have had excellent, trouble free results. I fully expect them to be the last hubs I ever need to place on the car.
Resist the temptation to cut corners with any portion of the cars' running gear/brakes/maintenance. An ounce of prevention here is effort/time/money well spent and will minimize failures over the season.
11-21-2005, 08:24 PM
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Since these new hubs are being made, could they be redesigned to replicate the non-M030 dimensions?
Matt is correct. The difference is a matter of millimeters, but its enough to ruin your day if you are trying to put M030 hubs on an non-M030 spec car.
Originally Posted by Matt Marks
Not an expert on this - but I believe that the M030 hubs are "longer" than the standard hubs. Meaning that the rotor mounting would be displaced outward from the location on the non-M030; Therefore, your rotor wouldn't be located correctly vis-a-vis your caliper.
Originally Posted by APKhaos
Matt is correct. The difference is a matter of millimeters, but its enough to ruin your day if you are trying to put M030 hubs on an non-M030 spec car.