Z-man

Good point. While in DE there is less of a chance of car/car contact, there can be a greater potential to damage due to the lesser safety equipment requirements, if car/car or car/wall contact occurs. That's why I always suggest to newbie drivers to upgrade their safety equipment first and foremost when delving into DE's.

HOWEVER, I have seen a few Porsches get pretty banged up during DE events, and the drivers are typically not much worse for wear. Porsche engineered their cars to exceed 100mph. They also engineered their brakes to stop said car quickly. Everyone knows this. But Porsche didn't stop there: they also took the safety of the dirver/passenger into as much consideration. Is the Porsche over-engineered? Yep: in just about every aspect of the car! And that's the way I like it!

Regarding improperly installed safety equipment, my PCA region (NNJR) holds a safety tech workshop once a year, where we cover stuff like proper FE installation, the correct procedure to secure harnesses, HANS use...etc. This is open to all club members. We also hold an annual tech inspector's workshop, where the volunteers learn what to look for at pre-event and trackside techs. Again, this workshop is open to all club members, with an emphasis on those who wish to get more involved with safety inspections.

If your region or club doesn't have such programs, I strongly recommend you talk to the pres or track chair and have them add these very useful workshops to your program.

The more folks that are aware of how to properly install and use safety gear, both inspectors and drivers, the better!

-Z-man.

Jean

Welcome back Mark. I also hope Viken and E.J. reconsider.

38D

Don't fool yourself. The safety stuff a PCA national scrut looks at is far beyond what is checked by any region, including yours.

kurt M

“any region”? Well , I never...(insert indignant smilie here )

PCA DE does not require added equipment but when a DE car with added equipment comes through a Potomac tech line it gets looked over by the same team of folks that inspect for C.R. log books and to the same degree for the most part. We see all kinds in "interesting" setups and recommend improvements or changes to be made to make them compliant to C.R. or better. We don't always dig ral deep on every car but I like to think we do check and catch the big stuff. Improper harness mounting points, working angles, incorrect webbing weaving, unpinned clips, 12 year old sunburned webbing, attached to guide bars, seats held by one or two home depot mud metal bolts and more. I agree that not all are as tight assed as we are and we are not perfect. We see and point out things that the drivers say” No one said anything before” a good bit. Such as the fire extinguisher held on a roll bar by two nice band clamps (not just the holder, but around the extinguisher itself. I asked the owner if he kept the right sized nut driver with him in case of a fire)

No we don't pull the car off track for 8 year old belts or drill and mike the bars but we do point out and recommend improvements and dig a bit deeper when things don't look quite right. I have on occasion gently required a driver to also use the stock belts that were still in the car when the 5 point was poorly installed or being used with stock seats by a short driver and not likely to work when needed.

I have looked at things on a C.R. car getting its log book that I would not pass on a DE tech inspection. The C.R. only covers the safety equpment directly and only glances at the rest of the car other than for class placement.

RedlineMan

See???

If you weren't so dang sage, no one would give a rat's **** if you had a hissy and left us to our own devices!
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Re: Safety Inspections - There are not enough truly qualified safety inspectors in my opinion, at least PCA-wise. The qualifier here - of course - is what level of liability the group in question accepts. In terms of PCA DE, it is not much.

The part that irks me is that they also equate this with how much information they provide; SQUAT. PCA DE participants are largely ignorant of safety, and to some extent I "blame" PCA for that. Not wanting to accept liability for personal safety is understandable and even necessary, but not providing good info for the same reason is not, in my opinion.

Who's to say the guy running the tech class knows what he's talking about, or as much as he should? Saying that any tech is better than no tech is only true if the inspectors "know what they are doing." Saying that DE is safe only goes as far as the level of info the participants have at their disposal.

Professor Helmüt Tester

AMEN, Rev. Redline.

HPDE Tech = early morning Kabuki theater.

Staggering sillyness, tempered by a lack of experience & knowledge. Yikes. Other than looking for grotesque leaks and checking the trunk for fuel cans and tool boxes, does this ever achieve anything ?

kurt M

Man did we go off topic!

Don't forget checking lug torque on a lug nut that might have been place for a year. It might have been at 80# but sticksion will let it pass the will it move at 94# on the T wrench.

Remembde that race cars in CR only get looked at the first time and little inspection is done after that. (unless you beat upper group cars all the time) At least the DE cars are being looked at each time to some extent. No it is not to the same standard of the log book inspection but it does cover many things that a log book does not. By the time you are to CR you are expected to be up on the maint stuff but I see all levels of prep at CR. Once you get the log book you can run the pads to the rotors and use 3 year old brake fluid if you want to. Most do not.

This is the 04 form but it is same other than date. This is the inspection that is done prior to the track day. Grid just looks to see that the car is close to usable. HPDC tech just looks to see that the car is not likely to kill the instructor.

http://www.pcapotomac.org/pca/html/d...acTechForm.pdf

sjanes

Well, now that we've gone completely off topic,

Exactly my point. I had a student this summer that had race seats and harnesses installed by the shop that techs his car. The harnesses were attached to a harness bar (made by the shop) and the 3-bar locking ring was about a foot from the bar, and the harness was not wrapped back through the ring. Before going out on track, I showed the student how the harnesses were wrapped on my car and "suggested" he do the same. I'd much rather accept liability than bounce off someone's dash.

Personally, I'd like to see a stock seat and 3pt belt. At least I know that Porsche knew what they were doing when they installed everything.

JCP911S

The pre-event inspection/Tech Form is intended to do the heavy lifting. Morning Tech is pretty much just a once over to stop gross problems (yes... tool boxes and gas cans...) and make the students get to the track on time.

Plus there are liability issues with recommending (or "demanding") safety equipment... sadly, the club has to be careful about making sure the legal onus is on the student... not the club...

I do think there is much more awareness and focus on safety equipment that 10 or even 5 years ago.... but some really scary stuff still shows up regularly

sjanes

I don't think PCA should recommend or demand anything in a DE car. I see no problem with someone driving in Red run group with a completely stock car. The problem is that people are buying the "safety" stuff (seat, harnesses, etc) and in a lot of cases, doesn't know what to do with it. How many DE cars with race seats have the seats installed improperly since they don't realize the seat is a safety item in a crash (especially if you go off backwards).

macnewma

Soooo...what do you guys suggest? How should PCA DE conduct tech inspections? How can we remedy this? Also, what do you suggest individuals who lack experience do to protect themselves? I can't say I honestly know the difference between a well installed race seat and a poorly installed one (aside from bolt tightness).

Z-man

Interesting how this thread has 'evolved.'

On what do you base this claim upon?

Our tech inspectors are typically volunteers from the club - those that have an interest and desire to know about the underpinnings of our cars, and exhibit an attention to detail. The veteran tech inspectors works side by side with newer members - teaching them what to look for and how to determine where attention is needed. Does that mean that something may slip by? Certainly possible. I mean, if you really want to get thorough, we should be testing the 944 A-arms for metal fatigue, taking apart CV joints and looking for divots in the ball bearings, and doing all sorts of tear down stuff. Impossible to do.

I don't club race (but I play one on TV). It is difficult to compare a CR scrut's job with a DE tech inspector. BOTH have their advantages and disadvantages. The purpose of DE is to allow car enthusiasts to learn how to drive their cars in a safe and controlled environment. The purpose of CR is to race. The inspections for either venue reflect the purpose of the event.

Many newbie DE-ers ask what is required to participate in a DE. Tyically, the response is, "All you need is a mechanically sound Porsche, and a helmet." The PCA tech inspectors ensure that the Porsches that participate in a DE are mechanically sound.

To that end, the tech inspectors I have worked with have done a stand up job at making sure the cars we put on the track are solid and capable of running through the paces. If you are worried that the DE tech inspectors are below par, then the way I see it, you have two choices:
1. OSB.
2. Get involved - don't just throw pot-shots at the system and claim it's not good enough - look for ways to help and offer suggestions to help improve it.

Regards,
-Z-man.

kurt M

I am not a PCA Scrut and I dod not stay at a holiday in last night but... but I do work club races as tech chair. I with my helpers do the Log book inspection and fill. out the front page and go through the paper work and gear. when all is good and ready I take the driver and log book to the Scrut for final aproval and the stamp. We did 15 or so at the Summit point race last month. Your CR race car just might be inspected by a lowly DE tech guy You can be sure that from an overall stand point my DE tech inspection is more involved than making sure you have a bar or cage that is made from thick enough tubing, you straps are in date, your seat has a brace if one is required and you don't have a drivers suit made from rayon and the lug nuts are steel. Or is it the other way around.

One thing for sure is I think it would be better if there was a national minimum standard for condidion.

We see this and other vairous permutations of the above every year. If the stock belts are stil there they have to use them if not yhwey don't drive. I have one guy with a home made bar setup that is bet is still mad at me for just that. I keep copies of the CR "how to weave the straps through the 3 bar ring" and give them out the the folks that have not folowed the instructions that came in the box with the purdy racy lookin straps. Too true this is why we have Grid tech to catch the "my shop put it in like this just before they filled out my tech form" crap. The regulars around here know that we look and expect (hope) to see what is on the form.

DE is and has to be set to entry level drivers that want to take their Porsche to the track and learn to drive it better. Wen you forget this part you can and many do run all over the place with ideas to "Fix" the problems. What to do when you want to improve your car? find a good shop and or experenced instructor and see what they recomend. Check the FAQ sections on the PCA websites. Look at what others are doing, good and bad. Don't just bolt stuff onto you car, you more likely will make it less safe overall unless planned out.

When you start to advance beyond the realm of entry level driver and know you want to continue with the sport is when you should make the investment to improve you car, safety first then handling. I think it is up to instructors to recognise this and urge and inform the drivers to take safety measures.

JCP911S

I think DE is reaching a critial point.

Yes the roots are in the "drive to the track with a helmet" philosophy that still to some extent underpins the program.

Still the cars have gotten MUCH faster and the drivers MUCH faster in the last few years... IMHO the program has evolved way beyond where it was 10 years ago, and way beyond that model for all but the lowest run groups.

I don't think PCA can assume responsibility for safety equipment in the cars for legal reasons. I think the solution is though education, and I think the committee and the instructors can and increasingly do emphesize use and proper installation of safety equipment.

I believe we are changing the culture to be more safety conscious and that that is the most immediate and efective way to go...

Dave in Chicago

That's a great point. The cars have such a high level of capability now, it's really kinda crazy. I cannot believe the number of folks showing up for the first time in twin-turbos and GT3's.

That's a far cry from when I bought a helmet and drove out to the track with my 158 hp 944 NA. The majority of the cars showing up with Novices were essentially F-stock cars. Plenty fast, but not SCARY fast.

We must allow for the "just grab a helmet, drive the car bone stock with 3-points" entry for the Novice. Most, if not all, find it a humbling experience and don't even think about getting in over their heads.

A good safety tech session in the region goes a LONG way for the folks that are starting down the slippery slope of modifications (yes - safety items first). Funny, I've never seen a driver have to debate the merits of safety item costs with their team owner / spousal unit. Hell, I've sold all the Club Race upgrades as loosely based upon safety.

Instructors need to work closely with their tech chairs as well. Remember, you DO NOT have to jump into a student's car if you have concerns. If you have concerns, then it's time to sync back up with the tech chairs in the region.

And let folks know that most of the tech chairs are VERY available via phone or e-mail to answer specific questions. It's the driver's duty to ensure the car is up to snuff before arriving at the track.

I, for one, will not hesitate to refuse to jump into a car with inadequate or poorly-installed safety equipment.