I'm baaaack (due to extreme stupidity)
10-07-2005, 01:50 AM
#16
Race Director
Originally Posted by ColorChange
1. Gingerman or Putnam are very safe tracks.
"Safe track" is sort of a contradiction, IMHO. Don't be fooled - anywhere a car can be made to exceed 100mph is not the safest place.
Is it safe compared to other tracks? I dunno: I've never been to either track.
But I do know one thing - even the safest driver in the safest car can experience a mechanical that sends him into a wall or armco, no matter what the track.
Don't mean to pick on you Tim, but saying a track is 'safe' is just giving yourself a false sense of security. Being prepared and properly equipped out there is important, but don't let that lull you into a sense that you can get away with everything and not get hurt.
-Getting off my soapbox now...
-Z-man.
PS: Mark - good to see your posting, as well as your avatar. Love that car!
Were you at the runoffs? I've read about the yellow Miata scrubbing tires issue, and wanted to know if you had an opinion about it.
Last edited by Z-man; 10-07-2005 at 11:01 AM.
10-07-2005, 03:26 AM
#17
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
I left here because it had degraded into a bunch of stoopid fighting controlled by a silly 2 year old. A froend emaild me a link to the current silliness and I see the same behavior is rampant. I will depart again but felt it important to make one post here.
Mike in Chi - this is directed to you.
Please do NOT get sucked into the stoopid challenge that CC is putting together. His car is clearly very fast, very poorly set up, and had never been subjected to the safety scrutiny associated with issuance of a competition log book. This TT event carries pretty much the same risks as a race and I implore you not do run such an event in a car that has not been properly safety equipped (full cage and full belts as well as a fuel cell) and inspected. While I know you can easily afford CC's car (many, many times over) there is little to be gained by taking those risks.
Please, either do this thing in your properly equipped race car, or use SRF's as was suggested. The SRF has ~2 million race miles to it's credit with no fatalities. It don't get much safer than that.
I will watch the thread about the challenge and being in the Mid-West, I will probably show up at the challenge as it will be too good to miss. Bye.
Mike in Chi - this is directed to you.
Please do NOT get sucked into the stoopid challenge that CC is putting together. His car is clearly very fast, very poorly set up, and had never been subjected to the safety scrutiny associated with issuance of a competition log book. This TT event carries pretty much the same risks as a race and I implore you not do run such an event in a car that has not been properly safety equipped (full cage and full belts as well as a fuel cell) and inspected. While I know you can easily afford CC's car (many, many times over) there is little to be gained by taking those risks.
Please, either do this thing in your properly equipped race car, or use SRF's as was suggested. The SRF has ~2 million race miles to it's credit with no fatalities. It don't get much safer than that.
I will watch the thread about the challenge and being in the Mid-West, I will probably show up at the challenge as it will be too good to miss. Bye.
We won't be using Tim's car.
He also called me out a month ago. When I said sure let's use your car at my next event. I never heard from him again. That was before I learned what Rick said about the car. So I withdrew the my offer to his orignal call-out that went unanswered.
Now reading your reasons, I'm really glad I did.
The terms on the table do include a properly prepared race car.
Thanks.
10-07-2005, 09:01 AM
#18
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Hi Mark. I wish I could challenge you ... but I can't. Mike might be low odds, you ... no chance. IMO you're a little over the top on the safety of my car. 1. Gingerman or Putnam are very safe tracks. 2. The car is new. 3. I have a bar, FE, 6pt, GT-3 seats, ISAAC. 4. The car is maintained by Perfect Power. 5. The poor set-up isn' t permanent.
Originally Posted by Mike in Chi
We won't be using Tim's car. He also called me out a month ago. When I said sure let's use your car at my next event. I never heard from him again. That was before I learned what Rick said about the car. So I withdrew the my offer to his orignal call-out that went unanswered. Now reading your reasons, I'm really glad I did. The terms on the table do include a properly prepared race car. Thanks.
Don't ruin our Sunday Driver Love Fest with this Small ***** crap!
10-07-2005, 10:03 AM
#21
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Z-man
You stated this before, just recently. I wanted to comment, but bit my tongue. But I could only bite it for so long:
"Safe track" is sort of a contradiction, IMHO. Don't be fooled - anywhere a car can be made to exceed 100mph is not the safest place.
Is it safe compared to other tracks? I dunno: I've never been to either track.
But I do know one thing - even the safest driver in the safest car can experience a mechanical that sends him into a wall or armco, no matter what the track.
Don't mean to pick on you Tim, but saying a track is 'safe' is just giving yourself a false sense of security. Being prepared and properly equipped out there is important, but don't that lull you into a sense that you can get away with everything and not get hurt.
-Getting off my soapbox now...
-Z-man.
PS: Mark - good to see your posting, as well as your avatar. Love that car! Were you at the runoffs? I've read about the yellow Miata scrubbing tires issue, and wanted to know if you had an opinion about it.
"Safe track" is sort of a contradiction, IMHO. Don't be fooled - anywhere a car can be made to exceed 100mph is not the safest place.
Is it safe compared to other tracks? I dunno: I've never been to either track.
But I do know one thing - even the safest driver in the safest car can experience a mechanical that sends him into a wall or armco, no matter what the track.
Don't mean to pick on you Tim, but saying a track is 'safe' is just giving yourself a false sense of security. Being prepared and properly equipped out there is important, but don't that lull you into a sense that you can get away with everything and not get hurt.
-Getting off my soapbox now...
-Z-man.
PS: Mark - good to see your posting, as well as your avatar. Love that car!
Were you at the runoffs? I've read about the yellow Miata scrubbing tires issue, and wanted to know if you had an opinion about it.I was not at the run offs this year but I did see the Miata video. Stoopidest thing I have ever seen (Miate driver). At any National race, and especially the run offs, the experienced folks know that stuff happens during a session and a big part of qualifying well is to get a hot lap just as quickly as you can. You never know when the session will be ruined and the Miata driver made huge mistakes 'blocking' the track for the guys behind him that didn't want to run his pace on the out lap. IMO, 100% his fault.
10-07-2005, 10:17 AM
#22
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
Thanks for the comments. John sent me an email and along with these posts, have convinced me to give it a try. I will just stick with my group of slow-***, low-class, mid-pack club racers and stay out of the threads where the real talent is challenging for the big $$$ and awaiting the phone call from the F1 teams.
Kim, come to KS and we can tip a few in my back yard.
Kim, come to KS and we can tip a few in my back yard.
10-07-2005, 10:25 AM
#23
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Welcome back, Mark, you've been missed...
10-07-2005, 11:18 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Quote:
Ask Steve Schardt how safe he felt after exiting turn 10 at putnam on his roof and getting T boned? I'm sure he is quite thankful that he had a FULL cage.
Originally Posted by Z-man
You stated this before, just recently. I wanted to comment, but bit my tongue. But I could only bite it for so long:
"Safe track" is sort of a contradiction, IMHO. Don't be fooled - anywhere a car can be made to exceed 100mph is not the safest place.
Is it safe compared to other tracks? I dunno: I've never been to either track.
But I do know one thing - even the safest driver in the safest car can experience a mechanical that sends him into a wall or armco, no matter what the track.
Don't mean to pick on you Tim, but saying a track is 'safe' is just giving yourself a false sense of security. Being prepared and properly equipped out there is important, but don't that lull you into a sense that you can get away with everything and not get hurt.
-Getting off my soapbox now...
-Z-man.
You stated this before, just recently. I wanted to comment, but bit my tongue. But I could only bite it for so long:
"Safe track" is sort of a contradiction, IMHO. Don't be fooled - anywhere a car can be made to exceed 100mph is not the safest place.
Is it safe compared to other tracks? I dunno: I've never been to either track.
But I do know one thing - even the safest driver in the safest car can experience a mechanical that sends him into a wall or armco, no matter what the track.
Don't mean to pick on you Tim, but saying a track is 'safe' is just giving yourself a false sense of security. Being prepared and properly equipped out there is important, but don't that lull you into a sense that you can get away with everything and not get hurt.
-Getting off my soapbox now...
-Z-man.
10-07-2005, 11:52 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Mark,...PLEASE STAY.
I've been away from DE's and rennlist for a few months due to the hectic work and family schedules and I am not aware of the challenge or any other recent theads. I've learned a LOT from your posts. So, for that simple selfish reason,...please stay...not to mention you come across as a very decent guy through your posts.
Jeeva
I've been away from DE's and rennlist for a few months due to the hectic work and family schedules and I am not aware of the challenge or any other recent theads. I've learned a LOT from your posts. So, for that simple selfish reason,...please stay...not to mention you come across as a very decent guy through your posts.
Jeeva
10-07-2005, 12:35 PM
#27
Race Director
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Yes, Z-man and others, I agree, my point was safer. Some tracks are safer than others.
Each and every track has it's safer spots, and it's less safe spots. Since one cannot simply drive 'just the safe parts' of a track, I have a hard time understanding the concept of how one can rank a track as safer than another. Granted, some tracks have better run-offs, and the solid barriers are either padded or at a safe distance, but that's not always possible. Also: no matter how safe a track is, the dangers of mechanical failures, degraded track conditions (oil, gravel on the track surface) still exsist.
A factor of safety that is often overlooked is driver confidence. A driver needs to be confident in his driving and his car while he's out there. If I'm second guessing my driving OR my car, then I'm only asking for trouble. Of course, this confidence must be coupled with a sensitivity to know if conditions have changed - conditions on the track, on the car, and in the driver. A fatigued driver can be just as unsafe as a spot of oil on the track, or a failed sway bar bushing, or a so called 'unsafe' section of track.
Just my ramblings,
-Z-man.
10-07-2005, 12:41 PM
#28
Mark... your insights into driving technique and racing are always thoughtful, and backed up by real-world experience and credentials... always appreciate your opinions.
CC... if you want a challenge, get a racing license and prepare to be humbled.
CC... if you want a challenge, get a racing license and prepare to be humbled.
10-07-2005, 01:17 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
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Z-man: I am no expert on track safety but it seems to me there are a few key variables that make one track safer than another.
1. Speed - slower is safer
2. Obstrucitons - huge run-offs and no trees, mininal walls etc. are safer
3. Visibility - flat and open is safer
4. Track simplicity - few off camber, downhill turns, kinks, etc.
The other things you list sure impact safety. I think drive judgment/skill is probably the biggest factor. The other major factors in my opinion are the car, it's prep, and related safety equipment, the track itself, and the event you choose to run. Again, just my opinion.
1. Speed - slower is safer
2. Obstrucitons - huge run-offs and no trees, mininal walls etc. are safer
3. Visibility - flat and open is safer
4. Track simplicity - few off camber, downhill turns, kinks, etc.
The other things you list sure impact safety. I think drive judgment/skill is probably the biggest factor. The other major factors in my opinion are the car, it's prep, and related safety equipment, the track itself, and the event you choose to run. Again, just my opinion.
10-07-2005, 01:25 PM
#30
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
On Safety - DE is safer than racing or a time trial because most drivers are not pushing to or even beyond the limit. In the cazse of the "challenge" I'd expect participants to be pushing hard - perhaps ending up over the limit. I have lent my car to a DE particpant. I would not lend my car to someone trying to win a time trial - and I would NEVER EVER lend my car to someone participating in a grudge match.