TD in DC

This weekend, I will be attending my second DE with the 944, and this time it will be at the main circuit of Summit Point. In anticipation, I have been driving the course in my mind. I remember that the 944s take a significantly different line through several corners at Summit Point, including T1. T1 is at the end of the longest straight, and it is a relatively sharp right hand curve. In the movie in my mind, I remember that several of the 944s brake late into this turn and actually turn left a little before turning in for the right hand curve. The map doesn't show it, but they are actually using pavement from an access road to accomplish this. Most of the other cars, including the 996s, do not do this. Why were they doing this? Was it to help break the rear end loose and rotate the car around? Sorry for the newbie questions, but thanks in advance for any explanations.

swftiii

TD,

Good luck at the track and enjoy.

I know exactly what you are talking about for the entry into T1 and am interested what other much more experienced drivers/racers will have to say. I don't know why people do it, but would venture the guess that it widens the arc of the turn just slightl and therefore drivers think they can carry additional speed through the corner. My opinion is that it upsets the car more and therefore the handling is compromised. It is very easy to get the rear wheels light and the car to rotate by trailbraking into that corner, so I don't think that should be a desired outcome of a jerk of the car to the left immediately before entering a right hand turn.

-Skip

TD in DC

Thanks Skip.

Your thought about upsetting the car is exactly what led me to ask the question. I just wonder if I am missing something. I want to be sure that they are not upsetting the car on purpose, and my lack of experience in advanced (ok, normal) car handling skills prevents me from recognizing it. In short, I wonder if I am just seeing a lack of smoothness by intermediate drivers or an advanced technique that is beyond my skillset.

I doubt if they do it to widen the arc because the move appears to be a little jerky and not so far away from the line you would take without the little "jerk" to the left.

It is good to know that this is not all in my mind.

TD

Z-man

TD:
As Skip states - the left nudge of the can can upset the car a bit. IMHO, it's not worth doing it. Last time I was there (this past June), I tried both doing the 'lefty flick' and not doing it. To me, it seemed that the car was more composed going through the corner without the flick. I had one local of the track recommend doing the flick, and another regular Summit Point driver advise me NOT to do the flick. The latter is a 944 driver, btw. (The former, a 911 guy).

Also: I don't late brake that corner. Sure, you want to carry as much speed through the long front straight, but you also want to enter that corner with a composed attitude. Braking a little earlier will accomplsih that easier, making the exit speed greater on the other side.

Have fun out there!

BTW: I am a mid-pack Black run group driver in my 944S2. I'm no expert, but I can hold my own, I suppose.
-Z.

PS: Regarding the chute after T4 - I tap the brakes a bit prior to entry. Some folks say it can be taken without brakes, but since I don't have the kujones to take it flat out, if I don't brake, I wind up coasting down the hill prior to the chute - which is far slower than staying on throttle through the crest and downhill, tapping the brakes, and getting into the chute with more speed. Fun part of the track. (Actually, the whole track is a bunch of fun!!)

38D

Disclaimer: I have never driven Summit Point.

From looking at the track map, I don't think there would be too much gained from late/trial braking into T1. Typically, trail braking is important in decreasing radius turns like Big Bend at Lime Rock. In these types of turns, you dramatically improve your speed with trail braking, as otherwise you are throwing away half the turn. In this case, I would think it more important to get the entry correct so you can be hard on the gas sooner (since it looks like 2 and matbe even 3 are flat out).

BTW, I am the dominante force in the Black run group (when I actually do DE) an approved instructor in several regions/clubs and always on the podium in club racing (how you like 'dem apples Z-man! )

Larry Herman

Exactly. There is no coasting anywhere at Summit Point. On the brakes or on the gas, nothing else.

Todd, concerning T1, I feel that wiggling the car by turning left requires the car to be very stable so it doesn't snap-spin when you turn it back to the right. Remember that you should still be on (but reducing) the brakes when you turn-in, so in order to have that extra bit of stability you must go a little s l o w e r. Doesn't sound like the faster way around, does it?

I don't think that the 944 will be radically different than your 996. You will be able to brake a little less, turn-in a little sooner, with a little more speed, and you will be able to carve a tighter arc on the way out because of less power. You will need to trailbrake it in T1, and T5 to get it to turn-in, but not in T3 or T10 or you will be slow. Your car can full bore the chute, but you can't...not yet anyway. I'll tell you how I know this around the beer cooler. Have fun, it's a great track for 944s.

RedlineMan

Hey;

You can indeed change the arc of a turn using little outcroppings like that. The Glen is actually full of them, where the racers are continually going wider, and the tracks are continually paving over the drop off zones.

"Shaking" or rally turning the car is an old trick, and can be used quite effectively to rotate a car in a corner with little turn-in grip, when you are really flying and threatening to float the front end, or when you have a bit more general understeer than you'd like. Turn 8 (the Heel) at the Glen is an extremely common place to see this done. Turn 1 too.

TD in DC

Thanks all for the responses! Larry, I have no doubt what you say is true I have much to learn, but that is the fun part, isn't it? I must say, though, that if you tell me it has anything to do with shuffle steering I will pull my hair out! On that note, in the 44, which doesn't have power steering, I don't have to turn the steering wheel very much and I have NO inclination to move my hands at all

Alan Herod

TD -- We have discussed this anomaly quite a few times and it is not unique to 944 drivers. The only group that makes this left turn is the Porsche Club which has led other groups to question the left turn technique. The best we can figure is that someone did it and then someone following made the mistake of duplicating what they were watching. I see no reason to do this; although, it does help you to practice for taking the escape road which does require a slight turn to the left. I have observed this technique in every Porsche run group, in every model Porsche. This will not happen in Club Race unless you deliberately want to give up at least one position.

TD in DC

Thanks Alan. That is helpful. My first reaction when I see drivers doing this is that it is simply wrong. However, I have learned over time that when I have a strong reaction to something like that (whether at the track or in life in general), I need to step back because there is a chance that I am the one who really doesn't "get it." Thanks to you and everyone else for the responses. Rennlist is great for exactly this purpose. Even when people give conflicting advice, it still gives you something to think about. See you tomorrow.

TD

mrbill_fl

also have not driven summit pt....

One thing to keep in mind is, some drivers run the race line regardless of group, just to be consistent. Sometimes its not the fastest line.

Late braking in T1 may be the protective line, during a race, so that what they run.

At Sebring there are a few spots that the Teaching / DE line is not the line I typically run.

that looks like a great track, should be a blast! best of luck.

Alan Herod

TD - I am confused by the interesting track map picture that you posted. I cannot determine whether they are posting the tub numbers, the corner numbers, or some confused mix. Good thing that they have put names on the turns. After studying the map - Turn 1 & 2 are shown as turn 1; Wagon Bend is turn 3, but is shown as turn 2; The Chute is shown as turn 3, but is really turn 4. The big bold numbers are the tubs, or must be the original tubs, because Tub 1 is moved to the inside of Turn 1. The little bold numbers must be the original turn numbers.

What is the date of that track map, the scan dropped the year off? It seems like it might be an original engineering drawing.

TD in DC

Thanks for the reply Bill.

Alan,

That is an engineering drawing. I thought that the big numbers correspond to the turn numbers, while the small numbers correspond to the flag stations. I think that is still the current configuration, isn't it?

TD

forklift

I have an old SCCA book w/ that same map. Bill Scott narrates a hot lap and mentions T9 as a "non-turn", so T9 used to be somewhere around the bridge, but there is no turn there.....which is why T9 is now where T8 used to be etc....

See you guys tomorrow!

forklift

I will try to remember to bring the book tomorrow for guys to look at. BTW Bill mentions that T5 is really the only turn to trailbrake into...although I do somewhat into 1 and 6 also.