RJay

I'm glad to hear that. I've known a few people with them that are pretty aggressive, one of whom wound up kissing a guardrail the first time out. Another who wrecked the first time he soloed. This gentleman is a particularly nice guy, but after that I was tempted to call him Walter Mitty. Then theres a collegue at work, yet to come out to the track, but who exhibits a few of the early symptoms of turbo fever.

OTOH, some of my best track friends regularly win races in 'em. In the end, like they say, it aint about the cars, its about the people.

sharkd

I actually waved-off a sign-off the first time an instructor offered -- it was the last session of my second day ever at VIR (my 12th track day, total). I was more concerned about keeping the red mist at bay than my pride.

As for the use of traction and stability control by novice drivers, from a student standpoint, I think it actually increases the level of danger -- it gives a false sense of security and prevents a loss of control during "milder" mistakes, but won't save your butt in a really scary incident. Then again, both my track-worthy BMW's (a 635csi and a 325is) are '87 models, so it could just be gadget jealousy talking.

Obviously, you haven't seen Shenandoah... twisty and reasonably fast... ittty-bitty run-off room.

A930Rocket

I don't instruct, although I run in black, so I've only got my car as a reference. I've had several cars that I've tracked before the 930 and the one just prior was an '81 911SC that I had modded from stock. So the progression to more HP and better handling was slow. My 930 was the same. From stock to mods. And it takes a little getting used to the turbo kicking in. I learned while making changes and hopefully have gotten better over the years. Now I work with the car and the track to take advantage of the turbo kick. Knock on wood, I know I've made several "saves" from knowing what to do, that might have turned out differently for someone with less experience.

Long story short, I can see where a person in the green group has a fast car, i.e. a 930, CGT, GT3 and can drive fast on the highway in a straight line. We all can. Byt then they get on the track and all of a sudden they have to accelerate, turn and brake at potentialy great speeds, multiple times a lap while being aware of who's around them. They have to learn that they don't have the luxuary of time and experience at speed to make decisions.

BrianKeithSmith

Well I'm totally different than A930Rocket. My first ever sports car (of any kind)was my 930. The most powerful car I had ever had before that was my 130Hp Honda Accord (and I think 130hp would be a very high estimate). And after only a few short months of ownership I put it on the track and never looked back.

RJay : I know you were only half kidding about your 930 comment, but that was a pretty generic comment that really has very little accuracy. My gut feeling is that non-turbo drivers, especially instructors without alot of experience with turbo cars, get in the cars and the "violent" nature of the 930 makes them think the student isn't driving properly. After instructing for almost a year I went to a club where they wouldn't honor my instructor status and they assigned an instructor to me. He gets in the car and I take off, and we were at VIR where I had about 2000 miles or more at that time. He had no clue what I was about to do with my car, and was pretty much scared to death by the end of the warmup lap. He had never driven a 930 and had no experience with the turbo lag, so to him, it seemed I was out of control. He kept saying "why are you stabbing the gas?". I wasn't stabbing the gas. If he'd looked at my feet like a good instructor should do from time to time he would have seen that. Its called Boost!

BUT, he signed me off after the first session! Wonder why?

Anyway, I know RJay didn't fully mean what he said. But when someone starts saying "to watch out for the 930 drivers" I take notice, and I don't take it lightly.


Brian

RJay

Just to renew my reputation in the community, I'll admit I'm an obnoxious odious pig of a dork and try to regain some modicum of respect by offering up a more constructive observation.

It was mentioned that this incident occurred at around 4:30, which I assume was the last run of the day. While fatigue may or may not have been a factor, perhaps one thing we might think about is the wisdom of having green, yellow or blue drivers on track in the final sessions of the event. I know one of the rewards for being in the higher run groups is having one's sessions finish a little earlier. This is convenient, for those of us who trailer particularly, but maybe we should attempt to keep the novice driver's day as short as possible. As one gets more experienced, I think you know when you're tired and should come in. After 50, 100, 200 track days, missing one session isn't any big deal. But for a green driver, with a half a dozen days or less, perhaps desire will overcome judgement. No greens after 3 or so?

TD in DC

Although I understand the impulse, I think it is far too early to think about changing anything based on the single recent tragedy. We do not know why it happened (e.g., it might have been a heart attack or some other medical issue unrelated to the track at all), and even if it were due to fatigue, one tragedy does not a trend make.

Swapping the schedule or making other changes would just swap the risks. Is it worse for green drivers, who for the most part drive more slowly and are more cautious, to go last or white drivers, who are probably more aggressive, or red or black drivers, who definitely are more aggressive?

I think that the instructors hold the single most powerful tool for safety: Dialogue. Instructors can have a tremendous impact on their students, both at the current event and beyond. I know some of mine have, and each for different reasons.

An instructor who takes the time to explain the sport, including its dangers, and to impart their love and respect for the track and driving will do far more to ensure the safety of his or her students than anything else.

Also, the instructors can watch a student's personality and behaviour. If the instructor sees anything that can potentially be troubling, then the instructor can talk with the student and dig a little deeper to find out what the student is thinking. If the student simply has a "difficult" personality, that can and should be noted, and the student should be treated accordingly (I hope I haven't damned myself with that last statement ). Difficult personalities likely will be dangerous despite changes in schedule. It really is the people more than the type of car (and yes, I think the type of car can potentially reflect the type of person), but I think it would be a huge error to start restricting the types of cars that can be driven in particular run groups.

Accidents and tragedies will likely happen despite the best efforts of all involved. I would hate to see us, out of healthy concern and good intentions, adopt rules or changes that will not significantly change the risk involved but make track time more complicated (and thus more stressful, which in itself is dangerous) or less enjoyable.

One of the primary reasons I like this sport is the people. If instructors are trained properly, and they take the time and effort to impart their knowledge and their attitude to their students (which I imagine can be very hard work), novice students will probably be as safe as they possibly can be.

Thanks to the instructors. You have made a huge imact on me and my attitude with respect to the track and the sport.

Just my two cents.

Sanjeevan

FWIW, mid-ohio PCA does this...

TT Surgeon

The most dangerous run group is the intermediate solo, kinda like a 100hr pilot.

ZBlue996Kam

I don't think there is a need to shorten the green or blue students day. They need all the track time they can get to get better. Nothing beat seat time for beginners.

I really don't think how most clubs organize their DE program has any major problems. The current format has been working for years.

It is really sad that we have one bad incidence last week.

My heart sunk when I hear the news last week. I don't personally know Erik but remember seeing him around (I'm a Riesentoter too).

My deepest condolences to Erik's friends and family.

Phokaioglaukos

I concur completely with TD in DC's post earlier this morning. A friend just e-mailed me about the incident and, among other things, I noted that I did not there there were many lessons of general applicability to be drawn from this event. I believe that.

As to TD in DC's comment that "it's the people," I think he is absolutely right. Riesentöter is a community, one that I am proud to becoming a member of.

Sanjeevan

They don't have to shorten their time, Mid-ohio PCA switches the schedule for sun. p.m., so the green group goes out first and thus finish the day earlier.

ZBlue996Kam

Jeeva:

Sorry, I missed that point.

Yes, that's a good idea and most instructors will be available just in case a student needs one.

TD in DC

But is the risk of putting green students out on a green track any less than having them run last in the day?

Tony356993

I agree with RJay,
I am currently in the white run group for DE and I remember never ending a session early when I was in green or blue. I would be the 1st car staged and stayed out every lap. Last weekend with my home region (Riesentoter) at the Glen, I ended 2 sessions early because I felt I had run some great laps. The were the LAST sessions on Friday (before the incident) and Sunday. I recognize that my speeds are significantly higher and the level of concentration required is also significantly higher. Concentration and common sense are keys for safety. As adults, each driver should make their own decisions and drive at their own safe pace for a safe period of time. Maybe green students should have to ride the last sessions of the day with the instructor.

God Bless Erik and his family. May we all learn from this.

Tony

sharkd

That's exactly what the National Capital Chapter of the BMWCCA does, and it seems to work well, although you still get the occasional C-group excursion at the end of the second day.