Attitude at the Apex
04-11-2005, 08:41 PM
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Attitude at the Apex
Click here till I figure how to steal his attachment! First I want to thank Jack Olsen in advance for letting me steal his picture without his consent, but it really is perfect for what I need. 
I feel that one important item that is not talked about is the attitude of your car at the apex. If you look at Jack's picture, you will see that the difference between the late apex point and the early apex point is really not that much farther around the turn. The real difference is in the attitude of the car. On the late apex line, the car is pointed much farther around the turn than on the early apex line. This means that more of the turning has already been done, and the in the rest of the corner, the arc is more gradual allowing for more acceleration out of the turn.
My son mentioned this to me at VIR. He was apexing the Nascar turn at what he felt was the right point, but was running out of road if he got back on the power right away. He tried turning in a little later, apexing at the same point and voila, all kinds of road left on the exit. And then he said to me "hey Dad, you know what the problem was? I had the wrong attitude at the apex". To which I responded "not just at the apex, son, not just at the apex"...but that is another story.
I feel that one important item that is not talked about is the attitude of your car at the apex. If you look at Jack's picture, you will see that the difference between the late apex point and the early apex point is really not that much farther around the turn. The real difference is in the attitude of the car. On the late apex line, the car is pointed much farther around the turn than on the early apex line. This means that more of the turning has already been done, and the in the rest of the corner, the arc is more gradual allowing for more acceleration out of the turn.
My son mentioned this to me at VIR. He was apexing the Nascar turn at what he felt was the right point, but was running out of road if he got back on the power right away. He tried turning in a little later, apexing at the same point and voila, all kinds of road left on the exit. And then he said to me "hey Dad, you know what the problem was? I had the wrong attitude at the apex". To which I responded "not just at the apex, son, not just at the apex"...but that is another story.
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Larry Herman
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CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Last edited by Larry Herman; 04-11-2005 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Still trying to get the *%$#%$ picture to display
04-11-2005, 08:52 PM
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Bingo! You can be all over the apex and still wreck big time if you are pointed the wrong way. Good example is the Pizzonia video. I think he hit the apex but well, you see the results...
Hell I have passed an apex or two while looking at my turn in point....
Hell I have passed an apex or two while looking at my turn in point....
04-11-2005, 08:52 PM
#3
Larry,
From your son's example, it sounds like you are talking not only about taking a "late apex," which implies adjusting where you hit the apex of the turn, but also about a "late turn in point." I mean, assuming you don't change the apex point, you adjust the attitude at the apex by adjusting your turn in point. This is what I believe you were trying to get me to do at snake. I didn't say anything, but it took my breath away the first time you told me to wait to turn in until your signal before snake . I trusted you so I did it (after the first time, I realized it was possible so it didn't bug me anymore). In any event, am I understanding you correctly to be saying that a good way to think about a turn is to think both about your apex point AND your turn in point in order to optimize your "attitude at the apex"?
TD in DC
From your son's example, it sounds like you are talking not only about taking a "late apex," which implies adjusting where you hit the apex of the turn, but also about a "late turn in point." I mean, assuming you don't change the apex point, you adjust the attitude at the apex by adjusting your turn in point. This is what I believe you were trying to get me to do at snake. I didn't say anything, but it took my breath away the first time you told me to wait to turn in until your signal before snake . I trusted you so I did it (after the first time, I realized it was possible so it didn't bug me anymore). In any event, am I understanding you correctly to be saying that a good way to think about a turn is to think both about your apex point AND your turn in point in order to optimize your "attitude at the apex"?
TD in DC
04-11-2005, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Click here till I figure how to steal his attachment! First I want to thank Jack Olsen in advance for letting me steal his picture without his consent, but it really is perfect fro what I need.
I feel that one important item that is not talked about is the attitude of your car at the apex. If you look at Jack's picture, you will see that the difference between the late apex point and the early apex point is really not that much farther around the turn. The real difference is in the attitude of the car. On the late apex line, the car is pointed much farther around the turn than on the early apex line. This means that more of the turning has already been done, and the in the rest of the corner, the arc is more gradual allowing for more acceleration out of the turn.
My son mentioned this to me at VIR. He was apexing the Nascar turn at what he felt was the right point, but was running out of road if he got back on the power right away. He tried turning in a little later, apexing at the same point and voila, all kinds of road left on the exit. And then he said to me "hey Dad, you know what was the problem? I had the wrong attitude at the apex". To which I responded "not just at the apex, son, not just at the apex"...but that is another story.
I feel that one important item that is not talked about is the attitude of your car at the apex. If you look at Jack's picture, you will see that the difference between the late apex point and the early apex point is really not that much farther around the turn. The real difference is in the attitude of the car. On the late apex line, the car is pointed much farther around the turn than on the early apex line. This means that more of the turning has already been done, and the in the rest of the corner, the arc is more gradual allowing for more acceleration out of the turn.
My son mentioned this to me at VIR. He was apexing the Nascar turn at what he felt was the right point, but was running out of road if he got back on the power right away. He tried turning in a little later, apexing at the same point and voila, all kinds of road left on the exit. And then he said to me "hey Dad, you know what was the problem? I had the wrong attitude at the apex". To which I responded "not just at the apex, son, not just at the apex"...but that is another story.
I never got a chance to walk the track at VIR, but the Nascar turn seemed to be particularly rough on thse who choose to turn in early. It seemed as if at best the corner is flat and perhaps there was a little wink of negative camber.
04-11-2005, 09:35 PM
#7
Forgive me for I have an unhealthy obsession, but I was thinking about this on the way home. In preparation for heading to Mid-Ohio, I have been watching some video and reading some track descriptions. It seems to me that this idea of "attitude at the apex" is actually more helpful than always thinking about the benefits of early vs. late apex and early vs. late turn in because it captures both variables.
I mean, the "correct" attitude at the apex will be determined by what comes next: another turn, and if so, what type and direction, or a straightaway, and if so, in which direction PLUS the space needed for tracking out, which will be determined in part by your speed. So having a late turn in plus late apex for one turn might give you the correct attitude at the apex in one spot in the track, but in another you might want to take an early turn in because it will give you the optimum angle for what comes after the turn, right?
I mean, the "correct" attitude at the apex will be determined by what comes next: another turn, and if so, what type and direction, or a straightaway, and if so, in which direction PLUS the space needed for tracking out, which will be determined in part by your speed. So having a late turn in plus late apex for one turn might give you the correct attitude at the apex in one spot in the track, but in another you might want to take an early turn in because it will give you the optimum angle for what comes after the turn, right?
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04-11-2005, 09:52 PM
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http://www.redlinerennsport.com/DrEdEd21turning.html
Now, if you all had been doing your reading, you'd all know this already.
I'd like to tweak the outlook here a bit. Don't think of what Larry is describing as a late turn in. It is the PROPER turn in for what you are trying to accomplish. It is only late relative to the other turn in point, which was actually early.
Of course this is all very relative to the speed you are going. When you are starting out it is generally not horrendously important that you turn in exactly right because you simply are not going that fast. However, you may remember having instructors beating on you for turning too early and wondering what the fuss was about. You made it just fine with room to spare. Yeh... going slow!
Well, it was about this. The instructor knew that someday you would be going faster. They also knew that going faster would make you over anticipate your turn ins, or render your "lazy" turn in point less than optimal.
If you are running out of track at the exit curb, you've got to do one of two things. Simple really. You either change your Apex Vector (the angle you pass the apex at), or you change your chassis balance. Making your turn in a little later does the trick. Making your car a little looser in the rear is also a great thing... if you are good enough. Stick with the turn in point at first!!
I might also point out that making the turn in later also requires that you really commit to it. When you turn, TURN. Set the car decisively. Stick it over to the apex. If you manage to goad yourself into waiting for that later turn in point, and then go floating in like you probably were with the earlier turn in, you'll not only go off at the exit again, but you'll miss the apex by 10 feet!
There are many turns like this, mostly high speed sweepers where a good apex is critical. They don't seem to be techinically difficult turns until you decide you need to take them faster. You damn well better be ready to get serious! NASCAR and South Bend at VIR are perfect examples. Turn 10 at the Glen is also right there, and arguably the worst of the lot to get wrong.
When I get lax, I start coaching myself for these. "Be patient, Wait, wait, wait... BANG!" Patience is something I whisper in my student's ears when they start "Turning before they Turn." (another article!)
04-11-2005, 10:02 PM
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Todd,
When are you going to Mid Ohio? I will be there this coming weekend.
At Mid Ohio corner apex attitude is very important as so many of the turns lead into one another.
I also remember a friend giving me the brief driving lesson that EFR gave him some time before. It is a good idea to get the car turning in early (not early apex though). It took a while to get my hands around that concept but once I did a few light bulds came on.
And you last paragraph shows that you are understanding what it means to "give-up" a turn so the next one (presumably more important) is taken a a faster speed.
When are you going to Mid Ohio? I will be there this coming weekend.
At Mid Ohio corner apex attitude is very important as so many of the turns lead into one another.
I also remember a friend giving me the brief driving lesson that EFR gave him some time before. It is a good idea to get the car turning in early (not early apex though). It took a while to get my hands around that concept but once I did a few light bulds came on.
And you last paragraph shows that you are understanding what it means to "give-up" a turn so the next one (presumably more important) is taken a a faster speed.
04-11-2005, 10:18 PM
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Todd;
It is rarely the case that you need to early apex a corner to set up for one following it. It is much more common to need to apex extremely late to set up for a subsequent turn.
Coming out of Big Bend at Lime Rock, and setting up for the Left Hander is a perfect example. You need to set yourself for a VERY late apex in the Left hander, and then hug the extreme left side of the track exiting it to get a good Apex Vector for the right turn onto No Name Straight. If you "track out" even a car width here, you are quite possibly toast!
Getting into Roller Coaster at VIR is similar, because you need to stay right in order to get a good vector to turn left and head toward Hog Pen.
Having said that, there are some odd corners that "require" an early apex. The legendary Turn 2 at Mosport is one. If you go wide over the crest of the hill, it's even money you'll stuff, and in that turn it is usually BAD.
It is rarely the case that you need to early apex a corner to set up for one following it. It is much more common to need to apex extremely late to set up for a subsequent turn.
Coming out of Big Bend at Lime Rock, and setting up for the Left Hander is a perfect example. You need to set yourself for a VERY late apex in the Left hander, and then hug the extreme left side of the track exiting it to get a good Apex Vector for the right turn onto No Name Straight. If you "track out" even a car width here, you are quite possibly toast!
Getting into Roller Coaster at VIR is similar, because you need to stay right in order to get a good vector to turn left and head toward Hog Pen.
Having said that, there are some odd corners that "require" an early apex. The legendary Turn 2 at Mosport is one. If you go wide over the crest of the hill, it's even money you'll stuff, and in that turn it is usually BAD.
04-11-2005, 10:25 PM
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Guys, I largely disagree with the attatchment as it ignores trailbrkaing, but I'm too tired to get into it yet again. The attitude stuff at the apex and decisive turn in (ala Alonso) I do agree with.
04-11-2005, 10:31 PM
#12
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
I might also point out that making the turn in later also requires that you really commit to it. When you turn, TURN. Set the car decisively. Stick it over to the apex. If you manage to goad yourself into waiting for that later turn in point, and then go floating in like you probably were with the earlier turn in, you'll not only go off at the exit again, but you'll miss the apex by 10 feet!
I really appreciate your articles. It is helpful to read about these things in the calm of day when you are not flying around the track. I like the articles because they are written to beginners. Some of the great books, like going faster, seem like they are written more with intermediate drivers in mind.
Although I don't have a problem with committment (I never thought I would write that), I do need to work on making a decisive turn in smoothly. The later I turn in and/or the more conscious I am about hitting a turn in point (which is usually when I am trying to wait), the more likely I am to perform an "abrupt" turn in.
He he, that reminds me of a good tip from novices to instructors. If you are taking out a student in your car and you are driving anywhere close to the limits, don't tell them to "watch" how smooth you are: Chances are you don't look smooth at all. I can feel when someone is driving smoothly, and so I know they are doing exactly what they are trying to teach me to do, but there are usually so many minor adjustments and corrections going on that it "looks" to novices to be very abrupt and not smooth.
04-11-2005, 10:39 PM
#13
Hey Greg,
I will be at Mid-Ohio for the weekend of April 29-May 1. I can't wait. I have also signed up for two weekends at Watkins Glen and another at Summit Point, which I have yet to tell my wife
I hear that my in-laws, which have been fantastic to me, have started to talk about my "habit" 
With respect to the last paragraph, you are correct. I am trying very hard to "see the big picture" when it comes to learning how to drive rather than learning a set a "rules." It is very easy as a novice to learn the rules and drive cone to cone. I would rather learn "why" I am doing something than just learn "how" to do it. In the end, I think I will be a safer driver if I view this more like a chess game than jeopardy, and I will also be faster . . . hopefully.
TD in DC
I will be at Mid-Ohio for the weekend of April 29-May 1. I can't wait. I have also signed up for two weekends at Watkins Glen and another at Summit Point, which I have yet to tell my wife
I hear that my in-laws, which have been fantastic to me, have started to talk about my "habit" With respect to the last paragraph, you are correct. I am trying very hard to "see the big picture" when it comes to learning how to drive rather than learning a set a "rules." It is very easy as a novice to learn the rules and drive cone to cone. I would rather learn "why" I am doing something than just learn "how" to do it. In the end, I think I will be a safer driver if I view this more like a chess game than jeopardy, and I will also be faster . . . hopefully.
TD in DC
04-11-2005, 10:44 PM
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Well Color;
In the type of corner we are refering to - the specific ones I mentioned - you would be the ONLY guy on the entire planet trail braking there. But... I'm too tired to get into it again.
Todd -
As you now know, smoothness is relative to speed. There are rough fast drivers, and smooth fast drivers. There is really no need for being the former unless your car is a fright-pig.
In the type of corner we are refering to - the specific ones I mentioned - you would be the ONLY guy on the entire planet trail braking there. But... I'm too tired to get into it again.
Todd -
As you now know, smoothness is relative to speed. There are rough fast drivers, and smooth fast drivers. There is really no need for being the former unless your car is a fright-pig.