944 for DE
01-23-2005, 10:55 AM
#1
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944 for DE
What is the most dependable 944 for the track? I'd like to stay with NA models....any year better than another? I won't be trailering so simplicity and dependability (as much as a 20-yr old car can be) are important.
Thanks.
Thanks.
01-23-2005, 11:04 AM
#2
Race Director
All 944 models are the same for relability. The best relability will be determined by the general condtion of the car. You WILL need to fix some things as most cars have seen tough live and will need a little TLC to get them trackworthy. Once you have them ready they make great DE cars and even stock will stand up to the punishment. Just make sure you keep the oil level up there.
As side not the 944 S2 give you stock Turbo performance with the only downside (vs 8v cars) being a more complex valve train.
As side not the 944 S2 give you stock Turbo performance with the only downside (vs 8v cars) being a more complex valve train.
01-23-2005, 02:44 PM
#3
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944S2 !!
01-23-2005, 03:25 PM
#4
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Gbuff - I ran my '88 944 NA for 4 years as a daily driver (snows in the winter) and 15-20 DE days per year. 100% of that time, the car was tracked on street tires. I LOVED it! Even bone stock, the car was a joy at the track. Plus, you really have to concentrate on the driver to get fast (158 hp only goes so far). I did replace the shot stock shocks at 145+k miles with Koni Yellows and ran the last 3 years on an "in-between" alignment (think part way between stock street and full track - a bit more camber and the right toe).
This car was a GREAT learning experience and produced a big grin when I was getting around a lot of cars I had no business keeping up with.
I sold the car with 165k on the clock (bought with 107k on it) early in 2004 and bumped up to the current 968.
Words of advice and caution include the following (outside of all the normal tech inspection items, which are a given).:
- Move up in brake pads as needed (stock, then Metal Masters, then KFP's?). The issue will be more about having pads that last more than one day in front, versus stopping power. The car would always stop pretty well, just got to the point of melting/cracking pads in a day or less.
- Bite the bullet and do a PM on the rod bearings, including commensurate modification of oil pan and oil-pump pick-up (I caught mine by observing the oil plug magnet, but could have really ruined all the fun)
- Have the timing/balance shaft belts maintained by an expert in 944's. Everyone thinks it's easy to do. Maybe, but I would rather have someone who does this more than once every few years maintain this critical part of the engine.
- If it leaks, fix it right. The oil seals on these cars will start to go, mostly from age. If they start spewwing oil, get them redone.
- It's not a drag car, so no blazing starts. Porsche transaxles will survive BRUTAL track duty. They don't take kindly to drop-clutch drag starts though, and will hand you a broken pinion bearing to prove the point.
- Add harnesses as soon as you are hooked on DE, they help a lot. Removable mounting bits are available so that you can put them in/out very easily and quickly. I used the Redline Rensport bolt-in roll bar for my harnesses (like the extra protection), but pick whatever you like for the bar. You will find that you can quickly set the car up for DE (30 minutes) and de-track the car even faster.
- Learn to be patient. If you get good at it, you'll find yourself catching folks up in the twisties, only to find you can't possibly match them on the straights. That's the downside of having a car that weighs 3000 lbs and carries between 143 and 158 hp.
- Other than that, let the oil reach temp and don't spare the revs. These motors seem to take it quite well.
I hope this helps. Find one that you really like (color combo, etc.). I did, and NEVER grew tired of getting into the car every single day (road or track). Most practical vehicle I have ever owned when you consider the dual duty and the fact that we took that car camping, furniture shopping, just about everwhere.
Good luck.
This car was a GREAT learning experience and produced a big grin when I was getting around a lot of cars I had no business keeping up with.
I sold the car with 165k on the clock (bought with 107k on it) early in 2004 and bumped up to the current 968.
Words of advice and caution include the following (outside of all the normal tech inspection items, which are a given).:
- Move up in brake pads as needed (stock, then Metal Masters, then KFP's?). The issue will be more about having pads that last more than one day in front, versus stopping power. The car would always stop pretty well, just got to the point of melting/cracking pads in a day or less.
- Bite the bullet and do a PM on the rod bearings, including commensurate modification of oil pan and oil-pump pick-up (I caught mine by observing the oil plug magnet, but could have really ruined all the fun)
- Have the timing/balance shaft belts maintained by an expert in 944's. Everyone thinks it's easy to do. Maybe, but I would rather have someone who does this more than once every few years maintain this critical part of the engine.
- If it leaks, fix it right. The oil seals on these cars will start to go, mostly from age. If they start spewwing oil, get them redone.
- It's not a drag car, so no blazing starts. Porsche transaxles will survive BRUTAL track duty. They don't take kindly to drop-clutch drag starts though, and will hand you a broken pinion bearing to prove the point.
- Add harnesses as soon as you are hooked on DE, they help a lot. Removable mounting bits are available so that you can put them in/out very easily and quickly. I used the Redline Rensport bolt-in roll bar for my harnesses (like the extra protection), but pick whatever you like for the bar. You will find that you can quickly set the car up for DE (30 minutes) and de-track the car even faster.
- Learn to be patient. If you get good at it, you'll find yourself catching folks up in the twisties, only to find you can't possibly match them on the straights. That's the downside of having a car that weighs 3000 lbs and carries between 143 and 158 hp.
- Other than that, let the oil reach temp and don't spare the revs. These motors seem to take it quite well.
I hope this helps. Find one that you really like (color combo, etc.). I did, and NEVER grew tired of getting into the car every single day (road or track). Most practical vehicle I have ever owned when you consider the dual duty and the fact that we took that car camping, furniture shopping, just about everwhere.
Good luck.
01-23-2005, 11:17 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by Gregg Lewis
944S2 !!
-Z.
01-25-2005, 12:55 AM
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With Z-man on this. I love my S2 and if you keep up with routine maintenance you should have no issues. If you can wrench it yourself, it will be minimally more expensive than the 8v.
01-25-2005, 10:40 AM
#7
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I would agree with the others and say a S2 is the way to go, just an outstanding car all around on the track. However, if you want to spend less then I have 2 cars to consider. My Father drove a 83 944 for years as an instuctor and he drove it STOCK (other then tires and 5 pt. belts). Just an wonderful car that he beat the hell out of and the car always loved it. The '83's are lighter then the other N/A 44's, so he was able to catch the other N/A 44's (even the 944 S' too) in the turns and the straights. The other car I would recommend if your not looking to spend a lot is the 924 S. I just bought one for my Fiance to drive on the track and it is great. They are cheap (nice ones for $3-4K) and weight less then normal 44's. The thing I love about them is that they have the same nimble feel as my 914 track car. All I have done to the 924 S is put some track tires on it, Turbo S sway bars and new shocks. For under $800.00 dollars I have a great track car. Just a thought though. Best wishes - Jay Gratton
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01-25-2005, 12:29 PM
#8
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Hmmm...
I am going to completely dissagree with many of the others.
The most dependable NA by FAR is the 2.5 2-valve engine, 82-88, WITHOUT ANY QUESTION.
The S2 and 968 are fabulous cars, but they are not even close to the reliability of the 8 valve cars. The reason is simple - Cylinder head and valve drive.
As Z-man (and many others) can attest, the 4-valve heads have a nasty habit of CRACKING if driven at the track. This is NOT a cheap fix, and gets tougher as the supply of uncracked-hen's-teeth heads dries up. Figure $2k for a bare used head. The S2 and 968 valve drives can suffer catastrophic failures to head and cams that are hugely expensive to fix, sometimes exceeding the value of the car. Any of these failures can occur even to cars that are well maintained.
There is simply not much that CAN break on the old 8-valve engines. This is not to say that everyone with an S2 or 968 will have problems, or that those with 8-valvers will not. However, the percentages CLEARLY favor the tried-and-true-plain-Jane 8-valve.
No horsepower, but FAR fewer headaches!
I am going to completely dissagree with many of the others.
The most dependable NA by FAR is the 2.5 2-valve engine, 82-88, WITHOUT ANY QUESTION.
The S2 and 968 are fabulous cars, but they are not even close to the reliability of the 8 valve cars. The reason is simple - Cylinder head and valve drive.
As Z-man (and many others) can attest, the 4-valve heads have a nasty habit of CRACKING if driven at the track. This is NOT a cheap fix, and gets tougher as the supply of uncracked-hen's-teeth heads dries up. Figure $2k for a bare used head. The S2 and 968 valve drives can suffer catastrophic failures to head and cams that are hugely expensive to fix, sometimes exceeding the value of the car. Any of these failures can occur even to cars that are well maintained.
There is simply not much that CAN break on the old 8-valve engines. This is not to say that everyone with an S2 or 968 will have problems, or that those with 8-valvers will not. However, the percentages CLEARLY favor the tried-and-true-plain-Jane 8-valve.
No horsepower, but FAR fewer headaches!
01-25-2005, 12:45 PM
#9
Race Director
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Hmmm...
I am going to completely dissagree with many of the others.
The most dependable NA by FAR is the 2.5 2-valve engine, 82-88, WITHOUT ANY QUESTION.
The S2 and 968 are fabulous cars, but they are not even close to the reliability of the 8 valve cars. The reason is simple - Cylinder head and valve drive.
As Z-man (and many others) can attest, the 4-valve heads have a nasty habit of CRACKING if driven at the track. This is NOT a cheap fix, and gets tougher as the supply of uncracked-hen's-teeth heads dries up. Figure $2k for a bare used head. The S2 and 968 valve drives can suffer catastrophic failures to head and cams that are hugely expensive to fix, sometimes exceeding the value of the car. Any of these failures can occur even to cars that are well maintained.
There is simply not much that CAN break on the old 8-valve engines. This is not to say that everyone with an S2 or 968 will have problems, or that those with 8-valvers will not. However, the percentages CLEARLY favor the tried-and-true-plain-Jane 8-valve.
No horsepower, but FAR fewer headaches!
I am going to completely dissagree with many of the others.
The most dependable NA by FAR is the 2.5 2-valve engine, 82-88, WITHOUT ANY QUESTION.
The S2 and 968 are fabulous cars, but they are not even close to the reliability of the 8 valve cars. The reason is simple - Cylinder head and valve drive.
As Z-man (and many others) can attest, the 4-valve heads have a nasty habit of CRACKING if driven at the track. This is NOT a cheap fix, and gets tougher as the supply of uncracked-hen's-teeth heads dries up. Figure $2k for a bare used head. The S2 and 968 valve drives can suffer catastrophic failures to head and cams that are hugely expensive to fix, sometimes exceeding the value of the car. Any of these failures can occur even to cars that are well maintained.
There is simply not much that CAN break on the old 8-valve engines. This is not to say that everyone with an S2 or 968 will have problems, or that those with 8-valvers will not. However, the percentages CLEARLY favor the tried-and-true-plain-Jane 8-valve.
No horsepower, but FAR fewer headaches!
BTW: I just spent $5500.00 on getting a new head and having it installed after my old head cracked. If you figure that on a good day, my car's worth $8000, well, you do the math!
I can argue that you NEED the extra 50hp a 944S2 has over a 944 8-vavle motor on the track, but that's not entirely true - for example: VIR, last November, black / red combined run group: there was this pesky maroon colored 944 that came up in my mirrors and passed me quite effectively... Driver was this tall goofy lookin' guy...
Bottom line: hp doesn't matter as much as seat time. The 944 n/a and the 944S2 are basically the same car, and a good driver can extract just about as much from a 944 8-valver as a 944S2. And in the long run, the costs will be less...
-Z-man.
01-25-2005, 01:50 PM
#11
Race Director
the 2.7 cars are more rare and there by more expensive only slightly faster. If you fine one great, but they are not realy worth a premium in DE.
Tony.. Do you know why they are the hot ticket?
It is called 12-20 more hp all the way through the power band. I have dyno chart of Skip's 2.7L vs all the 2.5L 944-spec cars. His entire curve is up by 12-20 hp. That is a HUGE difference. All the 944-spec motors are with in 5 hp and only deviate maybe 8 hp at the top of Rev band.
Tony.. Do you know why they are the hot ticket?
It is called 12-20 more hp all the way through the power band. I have dyno chart of Skip's 2.7L vs all the 2.5L 944-spec cars. His entire curve is up by 12-20 hp. That is a HUGE difference. All the 944-spec motors are with in 5 hp and only deviate maybe 8 hp at the top of Rev band.
01-25-2005, 02:29 PM
#12
Joe,
The 2.7s carry a weight penalty in 944Cup vs the 2.5L cars. +150# for PCA I spec cars and +250# for H spec cars. It would seem to be almost a wash in power/weight terms.
That said, the front runners are all 2.7L cars.
The 2.7s carry a weight penalty in 944Cup vs the 2.5L cars. +150# for PCA I spec cars and +250# for H spec cars. It would seem to be almost a wash in power/weight terms.
That said, the front runners are all 2.7L cars.
01-25-2005, 08:32 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Z-man
I can argue that you NEED the extra 50hp a 944S2 has over a 944 8-vavle motor on the track, but that's not entirely true - for example: VIR, last November, black / red combined run group: there was this pesky maroon colored 944 that came up in my mirrors and passed me quite effectively... Driver was this tall goofy lookin' guy...
It is quite true that I Fully & Freely enjoy the task entrusted to me of openning the eyes of those that would see to the joys of passing them with far less ooopmh. And yet... I get the sensation that the Wellspring of the Secrets of Speed may be drying up a bit, and the flow lessened in certain directions, given certain recent characterizations.
2.7s must hold some advantage, but they are indeed rare, and getting more so all the time. As if time were not enough to thin the flock, the Turbo freaks are scarfing up the heads because they drop right on a 3 liter block! Hen's teeth indeed!