P.Po

Sorry to bring this up again, but I observed something really interesting this weekend. I have been watching F1 now for the better part of two decades. This weekends race was the first time that a graphic was displayed that indicated when the driver was applying either brake or throttle for most in car shots.

To my surprise, I did not see even ONE application of trail braking. Of course there is going to be error in the graphic, I understand this, but I was honestly surprised. After reading the RaceCar Engineering article, reading this board, and using it myself a few times, I couldn't believe this.

Perhaps the graphics are a total lie.... I don't know. If anybody taped the race, watch for this again and let me know if I am wrong. I am really curious.

I am going to keep a sharp eye on this for Brazil and Japan....

-Patrick

Mike Buck

I don't pretend to know how those graphics work or specifically where they pull the data from, but I thought I remember hearing it has to do with acoustics. i.e. the actual rpm data isn't being pulled from the engine, but rather is a best guess estimate from calculations performed on the sound of the motor

Braking could just be equal to "not on the throttle", again pulled from sound

The speed display could also be a calculation, based on engine sound(rpm's) and esitmates of gearing

ltc

I believe the radio communications and telemetry were compliments of Bernie (via Formula One Management).
At the beginning of the show, it was mentioned that FOM agreed to handle the broadcast in place of the Chinese broadcast network.
I believe it was also mentioned that FOM may be handling a few other races next season as well....didn't say which.
FOM has access to these items which the 'normal' broadcasters do not.

ColorChange

Patrick: Believe the Race Car Engineering data (and every other reliable source). The graphic was bogus. Also believe the smoke trails around the inside front tire on many turns nearly all the way to the apex.

earlyapex

I'll have to pull out some old mags that displayed the brake and accelerator data from the various drivers at different tracks. Many of these guys left foot brake and use both the brake and accelerator during cornering to balance the car. I'm not sure how they could display this data unless they were linked to the team's system.

Interesting race. Good to see JV back in a car.

Larry Herman

It is my understanding that at 150 mph, F1 cars decelerate at 1.1 gs just on lift throttle! They could be trailing quite far into the corner just with a slow transition from the brakes to the gas.

P.Po

I guess it is safe to say that the graphic was inaccurate. I suspected this when I was viewing the race. A few times a couple of engines went over 20,000 RPM, a few Race Engine mags say that this is highly unlikely given the current guestimated BMEPs..... (I won't even pretend to know what that means however!)

I was always under the impression that most F1 drivers blend braking and throttle anyhow and TB often to some degree or another. The graphic just shocked me.

The funny thing is that the NASCAR coverage seems to give way more accurate brake/thorttle data. The NASCAR drivers ONLY brake when they are turning.... different cars different setups I know.

I wonder why F1 can't display accurate graphics but NASCAR seems like they can. Now that I think of it, isn't telemetry during racing outlawed in NASCAR?? How do they get the data then?

Oh well.... just thinking out loud. Good feedback guys.... thanks.

-Patrick

P.Po

Mike Buck,

I just re-read your post. What you said sounds completly plausible and would explain the inconsistencies I witnessed.

thanks,
Patrick

RedRooster

I remember seeing a article in a magazine (F1 I think) last year. It was a comparison on Michael's and Reuben's braking and throttle techniques on track, with the engineering data.
Michael does trail brake, left foot brake. Reuben does not left foot brake(not sure on the trailing).
Now that I am thinking about it... the comparison may have been left foot/right foot braking rather than trail braking.... Trail braking is a little "easier" left foot style... especially without having to use the left foot for the clutch.
Sorry for the non-clarification

BrandonH

Yes the telemetry comparison showed MS left foot braking, RB not. It was the Sept 03 issue of F1. When I saw the article I emailed it to Ross Bentley since I'd just read his second book where he basically says if you don't LFB, you aren't going to be competitive today. He emailed back the following:

Thanks for the note. I’ve already got a copy of the article – very interesting. It certainly is a strong sales pitch for left-foot braking, isn’t it? My only regret is that the data is during a time when the cars have traction control. It would have been interesting to see the throttle traces if they couldn’t just tromp on the throttle!
Anyways, thanks again.
Ross



Which makes good sense: it takes less finesse to balance brake and throttle when the throttle side of the equation is essentially "balanced" automatically.

So I would certainly agree that if the TV telemetry didn't show simultaneous brake/throttle, we're not really seeing what is going on. Too bad. The kinetics of motor racing are already so hard to appreciate on TV, (my generous theory for why crashes are emphasized) something like this could really help.

Mike in Chi

Sorry to go a bit off topic, Patrick, but how about the grounds, and the team and hospitality "pagodas" over the lagoon?

300 million. Wow.

ColorChange

Brandon:
Now that RB has changed back to right foot braking, and has been winning recently, what does Ross say about that?

Are you serious about having contact with Ross?

P.Po

Another interesting thing about the race is MS spinning once in qualifying, once during the race. Both times where after an apex on throttle and the back end snapped around..... MS thinks something was up with the traction control.... and I thought HE was driving the car!

He was willing to take the blame however.... to me it looked like the car bottomed out and the rear diffuser lost it's effectiveness. The rear of MSs car was noticebly lower then other cars including Rubens.

-Patrick

BrandonH

Of course I'm serious; my prior post included his side of an email exchange we had last year. I don't know him, just enjoy his books and sent him a message at the address on his website.
As to what he would say about RB's recent winning ways, I don't know, you could ask him yourself.

My opinion: RB has never been slow. However his car is so disproportionately dominant that it could mean that the incredible Ferrari chassis more than compensates for whatever deficit RB suffers by no LFB. Even the F1 telemetry from last year wasn't scientific proof, merely documentation that in equal cars, the faster driver was LF braking. But with virtually all top drivers these days coming up through karting, soon there will be no one left to compare who doesn't LFB.
Great to see Jensen Button threatening wasn't it?