ColorChange

John:
I largely agree, although I really wonder just how much you could teach Chris.

In my opinion, speed is fun, and more speed is more fun (to some limit of course). I like the higher hp car because it's more fun, looks better, etc. I also understand that you think I shouldn't be trail braking. I disagree but your view is reasonable. As long I can do it and don't get the car too screwed up, too often, then I think I'm OK practicing it.

macnewma

I win I win!!! John, can I get a set of Ledas for free now?

M758

John,
I believe this has caused much confusion over the forum here for while. When Color first talked about trail braking many said no don't do it and it is not the fastest way around the track. I have always felt there is a right time and place to trail brake. It is not best IN EVERY corner, but best for alot. How much and how deep is also varied on conditions. Color has always been talking about what one SHOULD do to get 100% from the car.

I don't teach trail braking to novices, but also don't act like it does exist. I always tell them that it is very advanced technique and one false move and it can get to in trouble faster than you can say "Oh Sh...". There are some guys are relativly new that can handle their cars and are prepared to take some risks in some corners on some tracks. DE is first and foremost about safely driving at speed. Racing is all about low lap times and being in front of the next guy. Different objectives mean different techniques. Color has never talked about what is Ideal for DE. No wants to learn the racing techniques. Many of us have hit him hard as not being ready. Well he seems to be as ready as anyone in my book. He is not perfect and needs track time, but lets stop feeding him the DE line and let him know about the racing one he is concerned with. What does it take to start to learn to trail brake?
My opinion:
1) Some ability to sense the limit of the car as you approach it not after.
2) An understanding of weight transfer (ie throttle = understeer, brake= oversteer) and being able to use it on the track.
3) A realization that you are taking more risk and so should practiced in "Safe corners" first


To master trail braking you need:

1) Have very good feeling for what the car is doing and how close to loss of control you are
2) The ability to subconsciencly adjust your inputs (steering wheel gas, & brakes) to match the level of control or lack of control that you sense
3) Be comfortable with a car that is unstable and not panic if you exceed the limit of control.

Anyone who has mastered trail braking will have spun off during the learning process. Heck even guys who have mastered trail braking may spin off went they get it wrong. It is very easy to get wrong even when you know what you are doing. In racing enviroment however its the guy that gets it right that can win races.

MJHanna

Just curious, how many people are left foot braking as they trail brake?

M758

Color you know how you can teach Chris... USE DAS!

Really, Chris drives at very high level and makes not obvious errors, but a carefull consideration of DA from his driving can allow him to work on the little things. I think he is aware of this and is looking in to DAS systems. This is realy were a DAS is valuable. It is the little sublties that can be missed by driver, instructor or in car even in car video. Chris can see these on from the data and then attempt to address then on his next track seesion. It it looks like he might be able to brake a bit later in turn 2 and carry abit more side load he can go out and attempt it. Then he can D/L the data and see if A) he actually did get more side loading B) if it fact made him any faster at that part of the track and on overall lap time.

Yes DAS is good for something. I personally would refrain from focusing in on it until I have solid sense for the basics and how I can feel what I am doing right or wrong.

M758

Not me... I have not trained my left foot enough to be as delicate on the pedal as is my right. I many cases Left foot braking should be faster, but a good right foot braker is faster than a crappy left foot braker and I know which of the two I am.

ColorChange

Damn M758, I think I love you. Nice post and I agree 100%!

I only left foot brake on certain turns (usually high speed where I might need some turn in help but don't want to breath big or lift. But, I'm a newbie.

M758

Damn Color.. Not sure how to respond to that one

ColorChange

M758:
Heck, in this months F1 mag, Webber talks about his engineer working with him on his weaknesses. Schumi does the same. Many people feel it is the most important relationship for the driver. You can bet Chris (and all of us) could learn a lot from DAS. I will be happy to help Chris if I can but I do not consider myself an analysis expert. That is why I would so like to talk to one to see how much I need to learn.

mitch236

I think you misunderstood my statement. I wasn't talking about the brakes. If you are turning the car, you are adding friction the the front tires. This is similar to braking with the front tires

Again, another misunderstanding. I was referring to the 2500 RPM throttle which really isn't accelerating much. I agree that if you can accelerate after turn in you overslowed.

Sorry, this is true for everyone. It's just you may want to drive a different line in a higher power to adhesion vehicle but you always want to drive every aspect of your line as fast as possible. (Could I mean at the highest fc?!?!)


Much of what I say gets misinterpreted because the definiton of trailbraking is not clear. I use trail braking allot. I define trail braking as braking while turning. If you define it as using brakes for some defined reason, then how much I need it becomes less clear. I should really record my sessions because allot of what I do happens instinctually. Many of the students I take for a hot lap remark that I trail brake almost all the time. I don't even realize it. I am always trying to maximize entry speed and keep the car stable. If I'm not a little loose on entry, I blew it. I'm certainly not thinking about trail-braking.

ColorChange

I think you misunderstood my statement. I wasn't talking about the brakes. If you are turning the car, you are adding friction the the front tires. This is similar to braking with the front tires.

Yes, sorry.

Again, another misunderstanding. I was referring to the 2500 RPM throttle which really isn't accelerating much. I agree that if you can accelerate after turn in you overslowed.

I don’t think so. You should be using the capacity that is left from what you need to turn for braking. You shouldn’t even be on neutral throttle soon after turn in, you should still be using whatever capacity is left for braking deaper.

Sorry, this is true for everyone. It's just you may want to drive a different line in a higher power to adhesion vehicle but you always want to drive every aspect of your line as fast as possible. (Could I mean at the highest fc?!?!)

You are correct in that you want to drive as quickly along your line as possible. This is staying on the fc and we all agree (I hope). As fast in (yes), fast through (maybe), fast out (yes). This is precisely the point of the recent Racecar Engineering, Trail Braking article. (Shoot me your e-mail address and I’ll send it.) The classic line had an apex speed quite a bit higher than the trail braking line, but was quite a bit slower (2.2 seconds) through just that full segment. Higher hp cars have slower apex speeds but they are quicker through the whole turn. That’s what I was getting at.

It sounds like your are a big time trail braker, and other things being equal, you should also be fast.

macnewma

Interesting that you mention that. At that first DE, my instructor (a club racer) was adamant about learning straight-line braking. When I went out in his 930, he made a point of exhibiting how that worked. He even went so far as to get his braking done a moment before he even had to in an effort to communicate the concept.

On the second day of the DE, he began to push his car a bit harder, and I was pretty damn sure he was trail braking. I thought that maybe it was just an illusion due to his much more rapid speed. I asked him about it and he said it was an advanced technique. He advised me that if I had intentions of racing, I should pursue the concept once I have mastered the other skills. He said, as a beginner, it is difficult, if not impossible to master threshold braking, turn-in, a fast line, and car control at the same time as trail braking.

One thing that I think is interesting is that someone mentioned that Jackie Stewart was tested in R&T and they found that he trail braked considerably, but was unaware of it. I think that the idea of trail braking or straight line braking isn't as simple as on or off. I think it should be called "braking depth". That doesn't mean a deep turn-in point, just how deep into the turn braking runs. I believe this is always variable and the depth is proportionate to the risk involved and the speed rewarded (up to a certain point, which I think CC argues is at or near all apecies...this I cannot argue).

I propose the following: the deeper you brake the higher your entry speed will be...you may also run the risk of oversteer and loss of control. Does this sound right?

I think an offshoot of "braking depth" is the dynamic created by combining longitudinal deceleration and lateral acceleration. The ensuing weight transfers can be used as little tricks like rotating the car and increasing turn in grip.

On a side note: CC, I believe you have some valid points on theory (although my endorsement doesn't mean much), but when it comes to achieving your goal of fast laps you are shooting yourself in the foot. I am not telling you to give up on DAS or trail braking, they seem very valid. The problem is that they, IMHO, are getting in the way of your progress. I think you need to utilize an instructor to develop the base skills, then seek the more advanced skills in any manner you see fit. I laugh at 20 handicappers that think long and hard about whether to hit a high fade or low draw and then duff their drive up to the red tees.

Max

ColorChange

Yes Max, the deeper and stronger the tb, the more risk as you will be on the fc all the time, where there is little room for error. By little room, this doesn't mean you fly off the track. Just that if you blow it, you miss the apex, have to get off the throttle, etc. It doesn't mean you paste a wall. Look at my track video, I was having trouble with my brakes, couldn’t trail brake for beans, and I was all over the place on my lines. But, I was never at risk of leaving the track or spinning. Would I drive that way near a wall … no way. That track was wide open so ... banzai.

While I do follow your golf analogy, I don’t see where me tb’ing is a detriment to my learning high performance driving. If anything I learn better car control faster because I am nearer the fc for a longer period of time, as long as I do it safely.

macnewma

I am trying to say that you are concentrating on a very difficult skill to master that requires concentration at a time when other vital skills are needed (threshold braking, turn-in, car control). In my novice opinion, you haven't mastered those other skills. I think you should develop a certain level of adequacy at those more basic skills and when those become closer to second nature, work in trail braking.

I am not addressing your safety as much as your progress. That is for another discussion and I believe that experience is the only fair judge of safety and control.

Basically, you need a canvas to apply the art of trail braking. Does that make sense?

Max

M758

Max good point here. I personally learned to trail brake not be setting out one day to trail brake. I learned to do this slowly over time on one corner at the track. I was famililar with my 944 Turbo and when moved my 944 NA it had tons of grip, but no hp. So I had to focus on momentum to keep my speeds up. In that process there was right left chicane on 1.2 mile track the PCA did alot of DE's on. I practiced here often slowly found myself slowly rolling off the brakes aftermy 4th to 3rd downshift just after turn in. . It seemed that if I was a little smoother coming off the brakes a gradually and started my turn in early I car could get around the chicane pretty quickly. I could tell this from the rev's I had on corner exit. Anyway I learned to adapt this more and more that started my on my trail braking habit. Also along with this was reienforcement from similar slow release of the brakes at autocross. Over time this turn into proper trail braking as I learned that I could safely apply some brakes in corner entry. For me autocross was essential in learning this as I could test and exceed the limit and I felt there in safe enviroment.

Funny thing is also that when I added race seat my ability to trail brake increased dramaticly as I could better feel the car in this unstable zone.