NetManiac

I understood that you want to measure the temps in three places on the tread (inside, center, outside), but have heard about measuring the sidewall. What will measuring the sidewall give you that three measurements on the thread will not?

FormulaOne10

There is a difference between the temp on the contact surface of the tire and the side. You are right, Ideally you would actually want 3 readings from the contact surface. Additionally, taking the temp on the side of the tire can start to give insight on how the whole tire, wheel and more importantly the air inside of it is heating up.

Tire heat doesn't always come from road friction... When your tire pressures are "hot" it doesn't necessarily mean your tire is warmed up.

Geo

And a difference between the surface of the tire and below the surface. Like cooking meat, you want to take the temp below the surface to get the real temp.

chris walrod

Some years ago, Penske had mounted IR temp. readers on their cars to get real time temps. What they saw (especially on ovals) were temp spikes upwards of 50F!! Temperature delta between straights and corners were huge! They were not sure what to do with this new found data, how to filter etc. Also, they did get a lot of garbage data due to TMS (tire pressure telemetry) sensor output. They reverted to what they know, and have previous experience with.

Just too many temp spikes and not sure what data to use..

Professor Helmüt Tester

Another Colon Charge canard is machine-gunned out of the sky.

FormulaOne10

Very interesting info Chris.

Does this concept carry over to production cars where the g loading on the tires is not so great (without insane amounts of downforce or banking)? I can easily see where it can happen on an IRL car when they are pulling incredible lateral accel on an oval. Its pretty neat to see the tires get shiny around a turn .

NetManiac

OK, makes sense. I know that when I would release some pressure on my Kumho's the air was noticeably hot. But under similar circumstances with my Toyo's the air was much cooler.

But aren't the sidewalls pretty thin and "fragile" (for lack of a better term), so you don't really want to pierce them as you would the tread, right?

Yeah, I know a LOT of guys were having issues and trying to get the pressures just right during the PCA club race at Fontana. They would spend so much time on the infield that they would want to maximize the pressure. But they go so fast and generate so many G's on the oval that they didn't want to overcook the tire. I guess they had a problem a couple years ago with guys blowing tires at 180MPH I just set mine on the low side and lived with it.

trumperZ06

Gotta luv your choice of words there CC.

Colon Charge.... yep, about sez it all!

ColorChange

F1, you mat want more than that. Three on the carcass and one on the sidewall would be nice. I’m not certain what F1 does. Intend to do this with my car, one tire at a time though.

John:

When is the last time you’ve seen an F1 engineer take a pyrometer reading? I haven’t seen it in years. I know why I use pyro temps and why they are preferred to hand held IR temps, but they are inferior to real time IR probes. I’m hope you know that also.

I haven’t seen it in Cart or others either but I’m not as sure about what they are doing. Maybe Chris W can comment?

John, if the group experience is wrong, I should stand against it. If it is right, and I am opposed, I should correct my view. A lot of people saying something wrong doesn’t make it right. Sadly, this is common place concerning racing. Ask Chris at Premiere.

I generally agree with your statement on the importance of feel and it takes experience to develop it. On the other hand, I see it as my job as the race car engineer to be able to translate the data to what the driver is telling me, and “quantifying” if you will, what he is describing. For example, what if the driver feels more confident with a suboptimal car (maybe a little too much push than ideal)? In that case, if his higher comfort level allows him to get a higher g-sum and he is therefore faster than the ideal driver, you make the change because the driver is a variable. You might work with him during practice to help him, but at race time, absolute time is the only thing that counts, not theoretical time. Then again, if this driver’s weaknesses are large enough and cannot be corrected, maybe you test another driver and boot the first guy.

John, as hard as it might be for you to judge my driving from videos and data, it is even harder for me to judge anyone’s ability to instruct. I have no data. You might be great, I just don’t know. I also have little experience to know a good instructor from a bad one so often my opinion would mean little. Would I be willing to have you hop in … sure. I would be willing to hear what you had to say. As I said before, the best instructor I have ever met is Dave Redszus at Precision Automotive Research. When the time comes, he’ll be getting the first call (as soon as I start to plateau). F1 knows these guys as well and can comment on just how good they are.

Smokey: I’ve met Podborski and they were crazy. They were at the Olympic Training Center in Lake Placid going down the boblsed run on lunch room trays, at well over 60 mph at night. Those guys were psycho. I agree that downhill racing and tracking are very similar in a number of areas.

Chris W:
So that we don’t get into another “misunderstanding”, are you claiming that F1 and most top racing teams do not use tire IR sensors real time currently (as you certainly implied in your post)? I would still ask you to answer how you measure driver performance at a level of detail beyond segment times. You have not done so and this is at least the third time I have asked.

chris walrod

You were right-on about taking things way too literally. Evidently you read-into what people post here way too much as well.

'Stop Watch' was a FIGURATIVE statement, or racing slang!! GEEEEZE..

I never said anything about what F1 does or does not do with IR logging, did I? I only know of Penske doing it in CART, about 1998-1999 seasons, on ovals. Now if they or other CART teams had this technology on their cars...who know's? And who cares at this point

I really dont know what else you want to from me re: driver performance as I have answered already. At a 'pro' level, like I said before, driver performance IS LAP TIME! Not how fast he or she was in segment one, or turn 8 exit....the complete lap time is the ruler by which drivers are measured. Even if its the all too often 'miracle lap' that will get a paddock talking.

Now using g-sum may attribute to driver learning, personal feedback etc. at lower levels, but this is out of my relm of experience. I myself am still a instructee, not a instructor. I gobble up all the instructor time I can get as I feel it still helps me to this date.

So when you DE, do you drive one lap, pull off track and spend an hour analyzing collected data? Or do drive a complete session, then look at plots?

A great book for you is Racecar Vehicle Dynamics, SAE publication. It will definately help you out with what you are trying to achieve.

Here it is: http://www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.html

mooty

driving sideways and catch it often??? i don't think driving sideways is at any time property driving on the track.

if you are concerned abou taking time away from family then just have fun driving on track occasionally. DAS is for that last bit of improvment. practice is important. tiger, considered one of the best golfer of all time (yes, i know he's having some prob lately) practices every minute of his waking life. i am sure he uses video to help, but he also practices more than any human being. i am sure schumy practices as often as ferrari would allow him in the car in addiont to his DAS. just drive and enjoy. it's pointless that you are 2 seconds faster than me on track. who cares.

Geo

Chris W, you have the patience of a saint.

chris walrod

You know the old saying....'more than seven degrees of yaw is a waste of time'

chris walrod

Thanks George! For the most part, I think we have ALL been pretty patient with ColorChange and his quest to prove conventional wisdom wrong

Geo

Yeah, it's sort of Rennlist's version of Man of LaMancha.

Lots of tilting at windmills.