Ted Drake

Sorry, yes you are quite right. I can see the reason for all the left foot brake interest, I have heard you need two feet to drive a turbo.

What is a good lap time with the car at Big Willow, or where ever you raced it?

JackOlsen

I had toe-in on one side of the rear, and toe-out on the other.

SundayDriver

I think the quickest lap I did at Willow was 28's or 29's in that car (I know it was under 1:30 but it has been so long, I don't remember exactly). Comparing to sports racers, it did not have nearly enough suspension for the power, but to do that would destroy the ability to drive it on the street. Willow is really a momuntum track, not a HP track (look at the times from low HP cars with lots of grip). What really hurts the high HP cars is the amount of understeer induced under full throttle.

For example, there is a pair of right turns at Buttonwillow - CW. Exiting Cotton Corners area is the first (after the hill) and then a mild right into the infield for the Bus Stop config. Most cars, including that TT could take the second one flat. But with the TT, the acceleration (speed and understeer from the front being light under full throttle) would push the car all the way to the left. Then the speed and location would not allow full throttle in the left hand kink before Bus Stop. Now, if you have to lift in a series of turns, it is best to do that as early as you can - it is easier to make up the speed loss from a lower speed than higher. So the quickest way through there in that car (at least I thought so) was a little tap of the brakes to slow and move weight to the nose for a crisp turn, and back to full throttle.

RedlineMan

Sunday -

Good idea. Let's talk some application rather than mind numbing and barely useful theory!

I have only watched it on TV, but I can see where TB would be helpful for T2 at Laguna Seca. I imagine that after my H&T gear changes, I would switch to LF TB to keep the nose tucked in tight, balancing that with throttle to keep the rear stuck in place as needed.

I've only been to Mid Ohio once, and their tack map does not list corner numbers so I'm a bit lost as to which is T9. I'm guessing the first right hander in Madness? I was shocked to find a ton of front bite there. The only turn I could not get through decently was the Carousel. Just COULD NOT get the front end to stick.

Oldtimer -

You will do well to follow Sunday. He is someone you can count on for the straight real world scoop... with no poop!

A 911 is a very difficult car to come to terms with regarding pedal placement. I frankly don't know how they ever became legendary with engineering like that (and many other things!), but that's just me I guess.

The angle and position of the brake pedal relative to the throttle makes it REALLY tough to H&T, and the offset to the right makes it tricky to LFB. Most people seek to rotate the brake pedal forward, which puts it more in plane with the throttle. That, and extending the throttle up closer to the brake pedal with pieces of aluminum or wood. It can be done, but it takes some work.

We as instructors do indeed caution students to stay way from certain "techniques" that we know will likely get them in a lot of trouble initially, knowing full well that we will have to reintroduce them at a later time when they have gained some sense of vehicle dynamics, and when they start to see that driving swiftly is not simply a matter of connecting the dots with straight lines.

Your thinking on LFB is quite nuanced, and correct. I do much the same thing as you are speaking of. As Sunday mentioned, some of us embrace differences in intent where TB is concerned, and there are indeed some semantic struggles contained therein. I am one that draws distinctions between what I call "Rotational TB" (where the car would not make the corner other wise) and Balance TB. You are speaking of the latter, and I use it extensively when I drive. It helps me keep the car stable and planted in transitional areas. This probably stems from my "high instinct for self preservation" (you might read that as chicken!) but so be it! It feels better!

Maybe some day I'll get good enough to eliminate about half of it that I do and just fly over the abyss full bore!

SundayDriver

John,

Thanks for the comments and compliments. Mid-Ohio - Names are confusing there too because TV announcers sometimes call T11 Madness instead of T8. After the back straight, the right hander is 7 followed by Madness (T8) with is the left hander over the hill. T9 is at the bottom - right hander.

ScottMellor

I appreciate the vidios and the feedback guys. I'm still on the very steep part of the learning curve. At least now when I drive with an instructor, I can understand what they are doing and see how I might start to edge towards it. When I started, it was like you guys were from a different planet and were speaking Klingon. Now it's like you just have a really strong French accent.
I need lots of seat time right now. I wants to study some vidio of Willow as I have a bit of trouble with the line in the 4/5 sequence and the turn in for 9. My goal is to get into the 1.3xs and not get passed by Margaret in her Miata.

Robert Henriksen

Oooooo, you don't know what you just stepped in. Why not call them child molesters while you're at it?

SundayDriver

Scott,

First, I will let the French comment slide, but I have instructed DJ to have a 'chat' with you about that insult.

T9 is, IMO, the hardest corner I have ever had to deal with. Weird decresing radius, fast and no visual clues whatsoever. The correct line is to start along the outside edge and just follow the track as it turns. When you can see the apex, that is when you start working your way in. The problem is that you can't really see the edge to follow it and it is pretty easy to drop wheels off the outside. Also because of the road, you really must be heavy into the throttle. Anything more than a very slight lift, near the limit, will result in a big spin.

Here is an idea that might help you gain confidence. Change it to a double apex corner. As I enter, there seems to be a nice visual apex that is very early. Cut over to that and do your braking and downshifting there. Let the car drift back to the center of the track and you will then see the apex. Let the car come around and hit a second apex. While not as fast as the correct line, it is still a pretty fast way through and much easier to drive. You can build your speed on that line and as you get more confident of the speed, then move the line out to the edge at entry. My bet is that if you try that line, you will actually be faster for now.

Another thing - this is probably a very good point for you to seek some other training and input. At least read (or re-read) Going Faster. Skippy school would do a lot for you right now too, if you are up for that.

JackOlsen

Scott, if you come to an Open Track Racing/Speedventures/Whatever event where I'm instructing, I'm sure we can get you into the thirties.

ScottMellor

Oh merde. Lets see if I can extricate myself from this one. It was not an insult. It was a comment about the requirement for a linguistic and experiential commonality to be achieved for useful communication. What are you guys, Franco-Phobes?
I mean at my first event at Buttonwillow, an instructor said to me as I exited Sunset onto the front straight, "You're pinching it!" Now that did not mean very much to me at that time because all I could comprehend at that instant was I was going sideways in the only place on the whole frickn track where I could hit anything.
I re-read Going Faster before every event, and new things pop out at me every time. I'm reading the Bently book, Secrets of Speed, right now and little nuggets keep getting through.

On 9 at Willow I hold a fairly tight line through 8 and track out towards the out-buildings and brake and downshift there and try to hold outside until it's time to head for the apex. You're right in that when I watch your Radical video, the glare and the gravel and the track all look about the same.

I think you're right that I might be ready for a Skippy School now.

Jack, I will definitely look forward to a ride with you, hopefully in the upcoming season. I'll PM you for some info about those groups. My next event is my final two days to get signed off at the POC Short Track Series in November.

JackOlsen

I'm a POC instructor, too. I might be there in November.