The Decline of PCA Club Racing
07-26-2024, 03:55 PM
#91
Burning Brakes
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Without the open passing experience, it makes it a bigger jump than it needs to be. MUCH more intimidating to make the change.
If PCA wants to grow club racing, encouraging the move up from Porsche-only HPDE to Porsche-only racing would be the logical path. Giving the HPDE participants an in-house pathway would be be worthwhile.
Come to think about, the BMWCCA operated the same way...
Never did one of their HPDEs, but the universal report from all my friends and all my customers was that they were discouraged from going 'too fast'.
All of the above group went elsewhere after a couple of times. This was from ~10 years ago, so it might have changed.
Clearly no path from their HPDE directly into club racing with that culture.
If PCA wants to grow club racing, encouraging the move up from Porsche-only HPDE to Porsche-only racing would be the logical path. Giving the HPDE participants an in-house pathway would be be worthwhile.
Come to think about, the BMWCCA operated the same way...
Never did one of their HPDEs, but the universal report from all my friends and all my customers was that they were discouraged from going 'too fast'.
All of the above group went elsewhere after a couple of times. This was from ~10 years ago, so it might have changed.
Clearly no path from their HPDE directly into club racing with that culture.
07-26-2024, 04:05 PM
#92
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07-26-2024, 05:05 PM
#93
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07-26-2024, 07:35 PM
#95
Without the open passing experience, it makes it a bigger jump than it needs to be. MUCH more intimidating to make the change.
If PCA wants to grow club racing, encouraging the move up from Porsche-only HPDE to Porsche-only racing would be the logical path. Giving the HPDE participants an in-house pathway would be be worthwhile.
Come to think about, the BMWCCA operated the same way...
Never did one of their HPDEs, but the universal report from all my friends and all my customers was that they were discouraged from going 'too fast'.
All of the above group went elsewhere after a couple of times. This was from ~10 years ago, so it might have changed.
Clearly no path from their HPDE directly into club racing with that culture.
If PCA wants to grow club racing, encouraging the move up from Porsche-only HPDE to Porsche-only racing would be the logical path. Giving the HPDE participants an in-house pathway would be be worthwhile.
Come to think about, the BMWCCA operated the same way...
Never did one of their HPDEs, but the universal report from all my friends and all my customers was that they were discouraged from going 'too fast'.
All of the above group went elsewhere after a couple of times. This was from ~10 years ago, so it might have changed.
Clearly no path from their HPDE directly into club racing with that culture.
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07-26-2024, 08:24 PM
#97
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A few years back (many years now that I think about it) a couple racers and I thought about putting together an "Intro to Club Racing" seminar, similar to the one our region does that's an intro to DE (that we stole from NNJR). It never happened because the then PCA Club Racing chair got wind of it and wanted to approve it and make sure it was vetted by legal, insurance, club racing, etc, etc, etc. He and I never got along anyway, so I just dropped it.
Our idea was to invite anyone that wanted to explore club racing. Talk through the basics of car prep, driver prep (required gear), the licensing process, race starts for the practice starts (which we no longer do unfortunately), rules, what to expect your first race and beyond, have a recent rookie racer speak about their first race experience, show some video, etc. and have a lot of Q&A interaction. Expanded thoughts was to have a bit of a mentor program where a new racer is helped and guided on their first race with a veteran racer. Maybe even provide lunch.
We've found that the DE intro we do had been amazingly successful (don't know how it's doing now as I'm not very involved with the region operations anymore), so why not do it with racing?
Now that I am typing all this, I can see an opportunity here to maybe put something together and have NaroEscape Motorsports sponsor it. A bit self serving yes, but hopefully can generate more racers as time goes on.
Our idea was to invite anyone that wanted to explore club racing. Talk through the basics of car prep, driver prep (required gear), the licensing process, race starts for the practice starts (which we no longer do unfortunately), rules, what to expect your first race and beyond, have a recent rookie racer speak about their first race experience, show some video, etc. and have a lot of Q&A interaction. Expanded thoughts was to have a bit of a mentor program where a new racer is helped and guided on their first race with a veteran racer. Maybe even provide lunch.
We've found that the DE intro we do had been amazingly successful (don't know how it's doing now as I'm not very involved with the region operations anymore), so why not do it with racing?
Now that I am typing all this, I can see an opportunity here to maybe put something together and have NaroEscape Motorsports sponsor it. A bit self serving yes, but hopefully can generate more racers as time goes on.
Unless you were holding this out as a race school, allowing open passing, or awarding race licenses, I don't see any reason why explaining PCA's rules and procedures for entering club racing would ever be something needing more than a cursory review.
This reminds me of when CVR got word that we could no longer hold our winter workshop at a go-kart facility and combine it with go-karting. "THIS IS A RISK!" they cried, and it died right there.
There is an even crazier story about a guy getting his race license revoked because of a CPAP machine, but that sounds so crazy that I don't believe it!
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07-26-2024, 09:21 PM
#99
re BMW-CCA, I can't speak to their DE culture, but they had a race school that was quite good- open passing sessions, side by side exercise, passing drills, simulated quali, practice starts, restarts and the final exam was the SRE simulated race experience. I did it twice. If, PCA were to organize their own school it would be a good template.
There used to be SoCal Alfa club that had race group and race school. It was a super fun school that could get more DE guys into CR. The format was simple. Have fun. Don't hit anything. It was set up on the Street of Willow where all day long there might be 1 or 2 sessions of line development and driving offline and the bulk of the day was doing race starts with a 1-2 lap race. Everyone got to be on pole rotating down until everyone started last to work through some traffic. It was casual and fun. You did more race starts than years of racing! That format could really excite some DE guys to cross over. Porsche club has its own school so maybe the AlfaClub format could be "intro school" or something like that. If such a school got known for fun and open to other marques perhaps you could suck some guys into porsche racing when they find out how fun the porsche guys are?
07-26-2024, 09:35 PM
#100
Three Wheelin'
Not because of a CPAP machine.
For disclosing OSA and CPAP therapy and then failing to provide data from CPAP machine that was requested.
In that other thread I think it is clear: PCA CR might be better off taking steps to inform candidates that they may have to provide such data and do their very best to communicate the exact requirements for that data UP FRONT.
No one benefits from "surprises." They can lead to mistrust.
As for "open passing," here is my observation:
In my opinion, there are at least two kinds of passes that one might consider "open."
Type one:
A faster car passing a slower car. There is no need for the slower car to contest in any way. In some DE's, this is allowed in certain areas of a track without the driver in faster car needing the slower car driver to "give a point by." Sometimes these areas are restricted to certain straight sections of track. In these cases, there are other track sections, like some or all corners, where the faster car is not allowed to pass no matter what. This might be called "open passing" in certain areas.
In some DE's, this is allowed in all sections of a given track. This might be called "open passing," or "open passing anywhere."
Type two: a racing pass. A competitive pass.
In my experience, there is no need to have DE drivers go through any type of special training or practice for these.
I think of my best student ever. She started her experience in less potent car in the very orderly GGR TT environment. It allowed open passing in certain track sections, but did not allow passing in corners.
As her skills developed and experience grew, she migrated from being passed often in sessions to needing to pass often in sessions. When she started driving our current and potent car, this trend was accelerated. These GGR TT groups might have at most 30 cars in her sessions. Once we got our current potent car, she was always one of the top 2-3 in lap times in her group. Therefore a LOT of passing.
When I started racing with PRC under NASA sanction, she started driving in NASA groups with "open passing anywhere." And the majority of her experience with this was at Sears Point with 30-70 cars in her group. She again was always one of the faster cars... so there was a need for lots of passing. She had no issues figuring out how to pass in corners or off line, even in situations where the folks she was passing had lap times that were relatively close.
Why? In my opinion because she had gained experience in an environment that was "focused on the craft." This environment helped her jump from a 3k lb 951 with Hoosiers to a 1950 lb 911 with big sticky slicks. She could use a lot of both cars. Grip is grip. Line is line. And so on. The craft!!!!
She only raced wheel-to-wheel once. She had no racing license. The race was run by the Northern California Racing Club/ARC. There was no quali-- they gridded by self-declared time. She gridded about 2/3 toward the back even though her lap times would have put her in the top 3-4 cars of the ~30 car field.
My only concern for her was the rolling start and the first few corners. This was the part of her race with which she had no experience from GGR TT or her NASA work
Rolling start, close quarters.
She did just fine. She passed in corners and off line. Competitive passes.
By the time of my first PCA CR I had about 6-10 race starts already in hand... usually running up front.
I went through the mandatory "practice starts" with PCA CR and had no major issues or concerns.
In my experience and opinion, there is not a lot of need to "teach" COMMITTED new racers with plenty of preceding driving experience how to accomplish competitive passes. I think it is important to help them understand the rules, like we had in the PRC codified in our guidelines for racing.
Race starts.... different story. Here I see opportunities to help folks along with things like "practice starts."
For disclosing OSA and CPAP therapy and then failing to provide data from CPAP machine that was requested.
In that other thread I think it is clear: PCA CR might be better off taking steps to inform candidates that they may have to provide such data and do their very best to communicate the exact requirements for that data UP FRONT.
No one benefits from "surprises." They can lead to mistrust.
As for "open passing," here is my observation:
In my opinion, there are at least two kinds of passes that one might consider "open."
Type one:
A faster car passing a slower car. There is no need for the slower car to contest in any way. In some DE's, this is allowed in certain areas of a track without the driver in faster car needing the slower car driver to "give a point by." Sometimes these areas are restricted to certain straight sections of track. In these cases, there are other track sections, like some or all corners, where the faster car is not allowed to pass no matter what. This might be called "open passing" in certain areas.
In some DE's, this is allowed in all sections of a given track. This might be called "open passing," or "open passing anywhere."
Type two: a racing pass. A competitive pass.
In my experience, there is no need to have DE drivers go through any type of special training or practice for these.
I think of my best student ever. She started her experience in less potent car in the very orderly GGR TT environment. It allowed open passing in certain track sections, but did not allow passing in corners.
As her skills developed and experience grew, she migrated from being passed often in sessions to needing to pass often in sessions. When she started driving our current and potent car, this trend was accelerated. These GGR TT groups might have at most 30 cars in her sessions. Once we got our current potent car, she was always one of the top 2-3 in lap times in her group. Therefore a LOT of passing.
When I started racing with PRC under NASA sanction, she started driving in NASA groups with "open passing anywhere." And the majority of her experience with this was at Sears Point with 30-70 cars in her group. She again was always one of the faster cars... so there was a need for lots of passing. She had no issues figuring out how to pass in corners or off line, even in situations where the folks she was passing had lap times that were relatively close.
Why? In my opinion because she had gained experience in an environment that was "focused on the craft." This environment helped her jump from a 3k lb 951 with Hoosiers to a 1950 lb 911 with big sticky slicks. She could use a lot of both cars. Grip is grip. Line is line. And so on. The craft!!!!
She only raced wheel-to-wheel once. She had no racing license. The race was run by the Northern California Racing Club/ARC. There was no quali-- they gridded by self-declared time. She gridded about 2/3 toward the back even though her lap times would have put her in the top 3-4 cars of the ~30 car field.
My only concern for her was the rolling start and the first few corners. This was the part of her race with which she had no experience from GGR TT or her NASA work
Rolling start, close quarters.
She did just fine. She passed in corners and off line. Competitive passes.
By the time of my first PCA CR I had about 6-10 race starts already in hand... usually running up front.
I went through the mandatory "practice starts" with PCA CR and had no major issues or concerns.
In my experience and opinion, there is not a lot of need to "teach" COMMITTED new racers with plenty of preceding driving experience how to accomplish competitive passes. I think it is important to help them understand the rules, like we had in the PRC codified in our guidelines for racing.
Race starts.... different story. Here I see opportunities to help folks along with things like "practice starts."
Last edited by Mahler9th; 07-26-2024 at 10:02 PM.
07-26-2024, 10:13 PM
#101
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07-26-2024, 10:23 PM
#102
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Not because of a CPAP machine.
For disclosing OSA and CPAP therapy and then failing to provide data from CPAP machine that was requested.
In that other thread I think it is clear: PCA CR might be better off taking steps to inform candidates that they may have to provide such data and do their very best to communicate the exact requirements for that data UP FRONT.
No one benefits from "surprises." They can lead to mistrust.
For disclosing OSA and CPAP therapy and then failing to provide data from CPAP machine that was requested.
In that other thread I think it is clear: PCA CR might be better off taking steps to inform candidates that they may have to provide such data and do their very best to communicate the exact requirements for that data UP FRONT.
No one benefits from "surprises." They can lead to mistrust.
BTW - who did PCA CR consult with when they got rid of practice races? I think that was another boneheaded move. They claimed no one participated but they easily could have said that several experienced drivers will be chosen each weekend to take part.
07-26-2024, 10:33 PM
#103
Drifting
Something needing to be vetted by legal, insurance, etc., is the PCA equivalent of a pocket veto.
Unless you were holding this out as a race school, allowing open passing, or awarding race licenses, I don't see any reason why explaining PCA's rules and procedures for entering club racing would ever be something needing more than a cursory review.
This reminds me of when CVR got word that we could no longer hold our winter workshop at a go-kart facility and combine it with go-karting. "THIS IS A RISK!" they cried, and it died right there.
There is an even crazier story about a guy getting his race license revoked because of a CPAP machine, but that sounds so crazy that I don't believe it!
Unless you were holding this out as a race school, allowing open passing, or awarding race licenses, I don't see any reason why explaining PCA's rules and procedures for entering club racing would ever be something needing more than a cursory review.
This reminds me of when CVR got word that we could no longer hold our winter workshop at a go-kart facility and combine it with go-karting. "THIS IS A RISK!" they cried, and it died right there.
There is an even crazier story about a guy getting his race license revoked because of a CPAP machine, but that sounds so crazy that I don't believe it!
Personally I'd settle for yearly geriatric assessment checks be a requirement on anything that has decision making that affects others quality of life (like pointlessly dicking someone around on licensing, adding infinite hoops to jump through, or rules lawyering). Too many old out of touch people exercising power they shouldn't have.
Last edited by Zhao; 07-26-2024 at 10:35 PM.
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07-26-2024, 10:37 PM
#104
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
BTW - who did PCA CR consult with when they got rid of practice races? I think that was another boneheaded move.
07-26-2024, 10:38 PM
#105
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Maybe someday it can be put into stone that PCA board members need to provide 6 months of CPAP data or they have their board position revoked. See how they like it.
Personally I'd settle for yearly geriatric assessment checks be a requirement on anything that has decision making that affects others quality of life (like pointlessly dicking someone around on licensing, adding infinite hoops to jump through, or rules lawyering). Too many old out of touch people exercising power they shouldn't have.
Personally I'd settle for yearly geriatric assessment checks be a requirement on anything that has decision making that affects others quality of life (like pointlessly dicking someone around on licensing, adding infinite hoops to jump through, or rules lawyering). Too many old out of touch people exercising power they shouldn't have.
