The Decline of PCA Club Racing
07-25-2024, 02:08 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
Do not lose sight that the CR event "risk" is with the regions, National is always kept "whole". Marketing efforts and financial risk for a particular event are at the region level, while National remains insulated and only markets the overall program. So National has yet to "feel" the pain dealing with financial losses at the region level and isn't set up to help struggling venues/regions, but with regions after losing monies over multiple years, even after adding HPDE run groups to events or even partnering with BMW CCA, have started dropping / cutting back CR events from their calendars. PCA CR use to be a cash cow for the regions, those days are gone for most regions and have been declining for years (with no help from National). Talking with National about the concerns from the region point of view has been less than productive. They see everything as fine (probably because their budgets and perks remain intact) and continue to just fiddle and offer no assistance/incentives to regions to stick with it.
For just one simple example, want to advertise your regions CR event, the region needs to find someone with such graphics art skills to make the actual ad / flyer to be placed. Talk about failed branding... no two event adds look the same. All Le Mons ads are the same format.
PCA CR can't (won't) cater to the low end / entry of the racing market, so you have Le Mons / Champ / AER who become the ever growing entry points. Endurance racing (4+ drivers 1 "cheap" car - 12 to 16 hours of track time in a weekend) is a much more cost effective / low budget / we are in this together (and no Gray Poupon to be found in the paddock). Don't underestimate the feeling of not belonging when you show up with your modest investment in racing and you see car corrals with hostess services while you struggle to get ready for you session. Show up with a beater 924/944 to a PCA CR event and you will not feel the love or have much class competition. Show up with the same Porsche to Le Mons or Champ in the same situation, you feel part of the collective. If you do not start with PCA CR, it will be even harder to get you to switch later. No CR feeder series / strategy for the less well healed, than other race series will beckon and will retain those recruitment investments (see SM).
And over the years, HPDE drivers see how at mixed events they are the second class citizens as CR schedule takes precedent over HPDE run groups, which in itself is not an incentive for A-DE drivers to see CR in a positive light. And recruiting of volunteers to run the events is a growing challenge as the racing is not that exciting / easy to follow as a spectator.
And whatever new ideas come along, the risk is left 100% with the region, few if any will be willing to take that risk. The historic racing class efforts of late are a perfect example of am attempt left to the individuals and regions which failed to take hold as no underwriting from National to grow the program, regions can't take those losses waiting for the program to catch on / grow / succeed / "spread" across regions. That investment needs to come from National with support to grow it.
For just one simple example, want to advertise your regions CR event, the region needs to find someone with such graphics art skills to make the actual ad / flyer to be placed. Talk about failed branding... no two event adds look the same. All Le Mons ads are the same format.
PCA CR can't (won't) cater to the low end / entry of the racing market, so you have Le Mons / Champ / AER who become the ever growing entry points. Endurance racing (4+ drivers 1 "cheap" car - 12 to 16 hours of track time in a weekend) is a much more cost effective / low budget / we are in this together (and no Gray Poupon to be found in the paddock). Don't underestimate the feeling of not belonging when you show up with your modest investment in racing and you see car corrals with hostess services while you struggle to get ready for you session. Show up with a beater 924/944 to a PCA CR event and you will not feel the love or have much class competition. Show up with the same Porsche to Le Mons or Champ in the same situation, you feel part of the collective. If you do not start with PCA CR, it will be even harder to get you to switch later. No CR feeder series / strategy for the less well healed, than other race series will beckon and will retain those recruitment investments (see SM).
And over the years, HPDE drivers see how at mixed events they are the second class citizens as CR schedule takes precedent over HPDE run groups, which in itself is not an incentive for A-DE drivers to see CR in a positive light. And recruiting of volunteers to run the events is a growing challenge as the racing is not that exciting / easy to follow as a spectator.
And whatever new ideas come along, the risk is left 100% with the region, few if any will be willing to take that risk. The historic racing class efforts of late are a perfect example of am attempt left to the individuals and regions which failed to take hold as no underwriting from National to grow the program, regions can't take those losses waiting for the program to catch on / grow / succeed / "spread" across regions. That investment needs to come from National with support to grow it.
What do folks in regions expect from PCA CR? What would they want that they are not receiving?
I hypothesize that there are regional differences in racing cultures, demographics and so on. How often do the folks at PCA CR meet and discuss with folks in regions that are or have been involved with hosting events about experiences and best practices? Discussions that take into account regional differences, trends, successes and failures?
07-25-2024, 02:23 PM
#62
Three Wheelin'
".... not belonging."
I remember when the late Tim Fleming and others cut a deal for two PCA CR groups at the now former Road and Track Invitational at Laguna Seca. This was an event with paid spectators, autograph sessions, et cetera. I raced in these events, and we had a broad spectrum of entrants
See some pix here: http://www.dleong.org/2004/track/spi/spi.htm
We had folks from all over the country with transporters and fancy iron.
Some fans were shocked to see that the two race winners served as their own crew and towed their cars to the track. They drove converted street cars.
I suspect that the "mix" of cars in the PCA CR program today is more "rich," that is, has more recent models, more cars built and/or maintained by shops, and has more factory race cars.
So the car demographics have likely changed. And as I stated before, there have probably been some changes in demographics amongst racers, DE participants and racing "prospects."
I think understanding some of these things better can help inform strategies and tactics to overcome challenges, reduce frustrations, and realize opportunities.
I remember when the late Tim Fleming and others cut a deal for two PCA CR groups at the now former Road and Track Invitational at Laguna Seca. This was an event with paid spectators, autograph sessions, et cetera. I raced in these events, and we had a broad spectrum of entrants
See some pix here: http://www.dleong.org/2004/track/spi/spi.htm
We had folks from all over the country with transporters and fancy iron.
Some fans were shocked to see that the two race winners served as their own crew and towed their cars to the track. They drove converted street cars.
I suspect that the "mix" of cars in the PCA CR program today is more "rich," that is, has more recent models, more cars built and/or maintained by shops, and has more factory race cars.
So the car demographics have likely changed. And as I stated before, there have probably been some changes in demographics amongst racers, DE participants and racing "prospects."
I think understanding some of these things better can help inform strategies and tactics to overcome challenges, reduce frustrations, and realize opportunities.
Last edited by Mahler9th; 07-25-2024 at 02:38 PM.
07-25-2024, 02:28 PM
#63
Three Wheelin'
Racing has been part of the PAG brand for a long time. It still is. What role (if any) does the "success" of the PCA CR program play in strategic initiatives of PAG and PCNA? Is it possible that there is no role?
Are DE's more important to PAG and PCNA strategies? Is the "fat part of the curve" for their strategies to move interested DE drivers and racers to GT3s, GT4s and Cups?
Are DE's more important to PAG and PCNA strategies? Is the "fat part of the curve" for their strategies to move interested DE drivers and racers to GT3s, GT4s and Cups?
07-25-2024, 02:30 PM
#64
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Perhaps these observations suggest opportunities.
What do folks in regions expect from PCA CR? What would they want that they are not receiving?
I hypothesize that there are regional differences in racing cultures, demographics and so on. How often do the folks at PCA CR meet and discuss with folks in regions that are or have been involved with hosting events about experiences and best practices? Discussions that take into account regional differences, trends, successes and failures?
What do folks in regions expect from PCA CR? What would they want that they are not receiving?
I hypothesize that there are regional differences in racing cultures, demographics and so on. How often do the folks at PCA CR meet and discuss with folks in regions that are or have been involved with hosting events about experiences and best practices? Discussions that take into account regional differences, trends, successes and failures?
There is the BBQ dinner every year, Potomac personnel come around after racing is done with a golf cart full of beer, there is the Erin Levitas auction, nice trophies, nice swag, and vintage racing. It is just a great atmosphere and the way the paddock is laid out fosters a "party vibe". When I showed up early one year and had to wait in line to get into paddock a Potomac person was handing out water and a bag of cookies to everyone. Everyone, from the grid workers in dressed in white, to all the volunteers, do an excellent job.
Consider that in 2015 the Summit Point race had 110 drivers and last year they had 126. What are they doing right when all the other races are seeing dramatic declines? I think it is a combination of all of the above which makes people want to go back every year.
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07-25-2024, 02:32 PM
#65
Three Wheelin'
By the way.... pretty soon we will be seeing a bunch of older Porsche track and race cars "free up."
What will happen to these cars (like mine)?
I am curious to hear more about efforts toward historic classes-- who did what, when and how did it work out? How could PCA CR better support or "underwrite" such efforts?
What will happen to these cars (like mine)?
I am curious to hear more about efforts toward historic classes-- who did what, when and how did it work out? How could PCA CR better support or "underwrite" such efforts?
Last edited by Mahler9th; 07-25-2024 at 02:45 PM.
07-25-2024, 02:36 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
One of my favorite races each year is Summit Point. I really like the track and Potomac does an excellent job making it a fun event.
There is the BBQ dinner every year, Potomac personnel come around after racing is done with a golf cart full of beer, there is the Erin Levitas auction, nice trophies, nice swag, and vintage racing. It is just a great atmosphere and the way the paddock is laid out fosters a "party vibe". When I showed up early one year and had to wait in line to get into paddock a Potomac person was handing out water and a bag of cookies to everyone. Everyone, from the grid workers in dressed in white, to all the volunteers, do an excellent job.
Consider that in 2015 the Summit Point race had 110 drivers and last year they had 126. What are they doing right when all the other races are seeing dramatic declines? I think it is a combination of all of the above which makes people want to go back every year.
There is the BBQ dinner every year, Potomac personnel come around after racing is done with a golf cart full of beer, there is the Erin Levitas auction, nice trophies, nice swag, and vintage racing. It is just a great atmosphere and the way the paddock is laid out fosters a "party vibe". When I showed up early one year and had to wait in line to get into paddock a Potomac person was handing out water and a bag of cookies to everyone. Everyone, from the grid workers in dressed in white, to all the volunteers, do an excellent job.
Consider that in 2015 the Summit Point race had 110 drivers and last year they had 126. What are they doing right when all the other races are seeing dramatic declines? I think it is a combination of all of the above which makes people want to go back every year.
Great to hear.
Do PCA members in regions involved in organizing PCA CR events have structured and facilitated ways to discuss these kinds of things? If not, would that help? If so, could PCA CR play a role?
07-25-2024, 02:44 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
Things have changed.
I started racing around the time that Cups started showing up. Cup racers had more "workload" in general, and we saw an increasing number of "arrive and drive" racers with crews.
Our local culture supported great paddock mixing with these folks for the most part... it was natural (a lot of that culture came from PCA). Great paddock social mixing helped our racing culture.
Has the mix of "arrive and drive" racers changed in the past decade? If so, has this had an impact on the racing culture? If so, and the impact is viewed or confirmed as negative, what could be done to facilitate improvement?
I started racing around the time that Cups started showing up. Cup racers had more "workload" in general, and we saw an increasing number of "arrive and drive" racers with crews.
Our local culture supported great paddock mixing with these folks for the most part... it was natural (a lot of that culture came from PCA). Great paddock social mixing helped our racing culture.
Has the mix of "arrive and drive" racers changed in the past decade? If so, has this had an impact on the racing culture? If so, and the impact is viewed or confirmed as negative, what could be done to facilitate improvement?
07-25-2024, 02:51 PM
#68
Three Wheelin'
I wise sage named Jerry Woods once reminded my that pro racing is an entertainment business. We had been discussing IMSA and GrandAm.
The type of racing that we are discussing here is NOT an entertainment business of course.
I hypothesize that the fat part of the curve of PCA CR racers does NOT want the culture to be "race with wallets." But perhaps I am wrong.
If I am right, what can be done to maintain consistency with that lofty goal, carefully considering changes in demographics (cars and racers)? Changes that are ongoing?
The type of racing that we are discussing here is NOT an entertainment business of course.
I hypothesize that the fat part of the curve of PCA CR racers does NOT want the culture to be "race with wallets." But perhaps I am wrong.
If I am right, what can be done to maintain consistency with that lofty goal, carefully considering changes in demographics (cars and racers)? Changes that are ongoing?
07-25-2024, 02:52 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Here is why I dont race P cars anymore but a Ford Mustang
25-40k for engine rebuild 911
10k Ford crate motor with 2 year 24k warranty and they dont break, ever!
25-40k for engine rebuild 911
10k Ford crate motor with 2 year 24k warranty and they dont break, ever!
07-25-2024, 02:52 PM
#70
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Things have changed.
I started racing around the time that Cups started showing up. Cup racers had more "workload" in general, and we saw an increasing number of "arrive and drive" racers with crews.
Our local culture supported great paddock mixing with these folks for the most part... it was natural (a lot of that culture came from PCA). Great paddock social mixing helped our racing culture.
Has the mix of "arrive and drive" racers changed in the past decade? If so, has this had an impact on the racing culture? If so, and the impact is viewed or confirmed as negative, what could be done to facilitate improvement?
I started racing around the time that Cups started showing up. Cup racers had more "workload" in general, and we saw an increasing number of "arrive and drive" racers with crews.
Our local culture supported great paddock mixing with these folks for the most part... it was natural (a lot of that culture came from PCA). Great paddock social mixing helped our racing culture.
Has the mix of "arrive and drive" racers changed in the past decade? If so, has this had an impact on the racing culture? If so, and the impact is viewed or confirmed as negative, what could be done to facilitate improvement?
In addition to all the above that I cited, a big part of what makes a race weekend fun is having a good group to race against. Whether I win or lose it is always fun to debrief with drivers that you respect after a race is over. I think a lot of the camaraderie still remains.
07-25-2024, 03:09 PM
#71
Burning Brakes
There are some practical realities to keep in mind when we think about car count trends:
1. Factory racecars are more prevalent today than ever before - not just in the Porsche World, but everyone from BMW and Mercedes, to Mazda and Toyota now offer them (often multiple models)! The series that are thriving cater to these cars.
2. Younger drivers aren't as interested in the old metal. (They're missing out). Who's going to buy the cars that Mahler mentions? Over the past several years, we've seen a renewed interest in stock-ish aircooled cars with 911CUP - but only three of the drivers have been under 45 years old. Not to mention that the 911 racecar I bought 10 years ago for $16k is now a $65k proposition; donor motors today are more expensive than entire race ready cars were not that long ago.
3. Spec classes are doing well.
4. Letter and GT classes (ignore GTC/D) are not.
1. Factory racecars are more prevalent today than ever before - not just in the Porsche World, but everyone from BMW and Mercedes, to Mazda and Toyota now offer them (often multiple models)! The series that are thriving cater to these cars.
2. Younger drivers aren't as interested in the old metal. (They're missing out). Who's going to buy the cars that Mahler mentions? Over the past several years, we've seen a renewed interest in stock-ish aircooled cars with 911CUP - but only three of the drivers have been under 45 years old. Not to mention that the 911 racecar I bought 10 years ago for $16k is now a $65k proposition; donor motors today are more expensive than entire race ready cars were not that long ago.
3. Spec classes are doing well.
4. Letter and GT classes (ignore GTC/D) are not.
Last edited by Jas0nn; 07-25-2024 at 03:18 PM.
07-25-2024, 03:33 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
As others have pointed out, finances are definitely at play here.
While there will always be the population of racers that have ample funds to pursue whatever hobby they care to, many others don't.
I don't race but I am taking this year off from DE. Between the entry fees, gas (don't laugh, my turbo gets low single digits on track) and needing a new set of track brake pads front/rear, I'm tapping out. Not to mention it's worth a whole lot more than when I bought it and I should probably also be buying track insurance in case something happens.
All that would easily peg a weekend, or even a day, at well over $600. That's money I need to spend elsewhere in home budget for family activities
While there will always be the population of racers that have ample funds to pursue whatever hobby they care to, many others don't.
I don't race but I am taking this year off from DE. Between the entry fees, gas (don't laugh, my turbo gets low single digits on track) and needing a new set of track brake pads front/rear, I'm tapping out. Not to mention it's worth a whole lot more than when I bought it and I should probably also be buying track insurance in case something happens.
All that would easily peg a weekend, or even a day, at well over $600. That's money I need to spend elsewhere in home budget for family activities
07-25-2024, 03:50 PM
#73
The mention of an official survey to get current/former club racers perspective was brought up. While there are many differences the concept-overlap is there with PCA Sim Racing and they conduct a survey after each season. The survey results and summaries are then shared and there is complete transparency. There is no reason this couldn't be adopted in PCA CR. Last season PCA SR survey results are attached for reference.
07-25-2024, 04:10 PM
#74
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07-25-2024, 04:38 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
Interesting.
I would encourage you to NW to some of the current teams and drivers to learn more. For example, I think that Thomas Merrill is still racing in TA2. He might be a good resource.
His family are long term PCA members and his father has been a leader of Friends of Laguna Seca. His Mom and Dad were very active in PCA time trialing and his Dad raced quite a bit in Spec911.
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