Adam Richman

Mitch, if you want to look at it purely from a logical stance, you would want to think of it as adding additional load to the outside front portion of the braking system - you already have weight shifting forward on braking and now you are adding a lateral load as you turn in - strikes me as more work, more weight, more heat. But I won't (don't have the acumen to) argue the semantics, I can simply point out the differences we see in wear between trail braking in a 1.5 hour race vs. not and that we see much better wear giving the car that breath between brake and throttle and making sure we are off the brakes at turn in.

mitch236

Let's say an apex can hold 60mph and the entry can hold 70, trail braking is used to maximize this situation. Also some trail braking helps to turn in the car by loading the front. I don't mean to be contrary but how is scrubbing speed any different than slowing? (edit) sorry, I reread your post and now understand what you are saying. I am learning alot today. All things to try.

mitch236

Adam, I will take your suggestion to heart. Your argument makes sense.

Adam Richman

Mitch, just to be clear, I am not saying "to" or "not to" trail brake. Just pointing out that as a means to preserve the brakes I think its going the wrong direction. On a track like VIR, if that's what helps you rotate the car into T1 or into Roller Coaster, go for it - its an easy track on brakes and you have plenty of cooling time/speed elsewhere. At Roebling Road, I don't think I can keep from trailing into T5 and I don't think it matters much - I don't think you will have much success fading brakes at RRR no matter what you do. But if you go to a track like Kershaw and you want the brakes to last all weekend or you notice them fading mid-session, might try backing up your brake zone and not drag them into the corner and see how that affects things - I have found good results this way personally but your experience may differ.

Z-man

Isn't trail braking also for getting the car to rotate a little for a better approach to the apex? I thought that was the main reason for trail braking! (Example: Pocono double infield config, going clockwise: the entrance to the south infield is aided by trail braking)

Also: I have to agree with dgz924s: I don't think trail braking will help cool your brakes. If anything, trail braking will generate more heat.

So....getting back to the technique I mention: is what I'm doing late braking? (Ex: braking for Big Bend @ Lime Rock at around the 2-3 marker) I'm starting to feel that I'm not late braking: I'm not 'charging into the apex' by any means, and the car is settled before turn in.

Although it is a totally different venue, but in autocross, I have found that a 'smooth but deliberate tap' of the brakes in the middle of a very sharp corner works wonders in getting the car pointed in the right direction, especially if the car is in an understeering condition. I don't use this technique often: I used it for three corners the whole last season. (But now I'm confusing the issue by bringing this up!!)

Thanks for the info so far guys! (Need more input!!)
-Zoltan.

dgz924s

Z....to answer your own question. where is your right foot when you turn the wheel? Still on brake then you are late. Off brake and on gas then turning you are not late.

Off brakes and in a coast you are early. If your car is straight and getting off the brakes at the turn in you are right on the money. Dallas

mitch236

Well now we are going into a completely different direction and I want to clarify my statements.

Trail braking will not keep brakes cooler. What I was trying to say is that if one were to complete all braking in a straight line prior to turn in then doing threshold braking early on and then letting up slowly as the car reaches the end of the braking zone allows for better cooling during the hardest braking. This is because the velocity of air traveling over the brake system is greatest at the beginning of the brake zone when the car is traveling fastest. Cooling is least when the car has slowed (at the end of the brake zone).

Trail braking is the most debated subject in racing. Every event we bring up the discussion again. There seems to be no dissention that in two situations trail braking is faster, decreasing radius turns, and turns that require help rotating the car. I wasn't trying to say that trail braking helps save the brakes.

Z-man

In a perfect world, that is what I'm trying to accomplish!
Actually, for the most part, I am doing that! (Unless, of course, trail braking is used for the corner)

HOWEVER, while I have that part of the equation correct, sometimes I feel I'm still over-braking for some turns. So I need to work backwards from the turn-in point and adjust either my braking pressure, or my braking start point, or both.

Gotta love the off-season: gets me thinking about all this stuff!

Thanks!
-Z-man.

Brian P

I'd echo what Dallas said.

Also, rather than coast to the turn if you are early, start easing off the brakes sooner in the braking zone if it feels like you are early.

Also, I wouldn't focus on braking at all if I were you. Instead, concentrate on how fast you are going at turn-in and at the apex. Brake early and light enough so that nothing is rushed at those points so you can clearly concentrate on your speed.

By braking early and light, your car will be very well balanced and you'll likely be able to go faster than you ever thought possible.

Once you are convinced that you are going into the corner as fast as you can, then you might want to work on your braking to get you down to that speed as quickly as possible.

Brian P

This is going to come out wrong, but work with me....

You should not be figuring out your turn-in speed by where you start braking or by how hard you brake. Instead, figure out your ideal turn-in speed and use your braking to get you down to that.

The best way I know how to figure out that turn-in speed (and I'm a newbie at this) is to brake at about 70%. This will allow you to easily adjust your pressure up or down and give you some extra buffer room in case you need drastic adjustments.

Once you know the maximum speed you can handle, then you might want to play with threshold braking again or trail braking.

Robert Henriksen

I would just like to congratulate everyone for not using 'breaks' instead of 'brakes'. The literacy level around here is actually on the rise!!

Z-man

Brian, I suppose we'll have lot's to discuss at Lime Rock in April! (Not to mention your desire to learn heel-and-toe! )

First off, I'm not figuring out my turn-in speed based on where I'm braking or how hard I'm braking. What I'm doing is after I go through a corner, I often note that I can carry more speed through there. How can I accomplish this? Well, it's not by changing my turn in point: that, for the most part won't change (consistency is also as important as smoothness!). I can accelerate in the corner a bit more, but that's not the solution either: it just bears witness to the fact that I can carry more speed through the corner! So, what's left? Work backwards from the turn in point, and adjust either brake pressure, or brake starting point, until I'm comfortable with less brakes, and more speed through a corner.

Is this method inappropriate?

Of course, once I'm comfortable with that setup, the whole learning starts all over again!

-Z-man, thinking maybe he needs to get out to the track soon, and take a break from all this brake talk!

mitch236

What we need is for Getto Racer to help you. He only charges (if I remember correctly) $1000 per second gain! What a bargain.

I learn you how to brake.
If you car break, I'm broke!
No joke!

Brian P

I learned it last weekend. Honestly, it was much easier to learn than I expected. Of course, doing it on the track is going to be slightly different.

Yes.

In the thread that somebody suggested we read, there was a great quote about braking technique. Here it is:

I would vigorously concur that a good suggestion for finding maximum corner speed might be to either coast to a corner a few times (hey, it's DE, not racing) or at least apply very, very light braking pressure. Now, this technique probably won't work so well for Big Bend (because of the decreasing radius), but it would be great for West Bend (and most of the other turns).

M758

It is 100% correct that corner speed SHOULD be governed by grip and not by how much you slow down. Too me when people are outbraking themselves they end up going slower through the corner since they are trying to stop the car so much so fast. Then either overshoot the corner or go slow.

I started going much faster when I started to brake sooner and less so that I could approach the corner in a more controlled fashion. This allowed me to work on corner speed and get that up. Then I could go back and adjust my braking points to get to that corner speed.

On trail braking

Personally I use trail braking alot. It is one of the things that can make you MUCH faster. Some coners have a limited straight line distance before them. In those corner you must trail brake to go around the coner effciently . Most any decreasing radius coner is trail braking corner. In other corners you can use straight line braking, but the fast guys with start their braking 2 car length's late and still be braking in first part of the corner to the apex. This minimizes the lap times by max time at speed and by using all the traction circle at corner entry. It also makes overtaking more possible.