Late Braking / Over braking / early braking ?'s
03-04-2004, 01:33 PM
#211
Reading this thread just makes me want to start DE'ing even more! I can't add too much to the discussion, but I wanted to comment on one thing:
The way you presented your argument on the 996 board, it really sounded like you believe you should be on the edge of the fc 100% of the time to have the fastest lap time. I'm sure if you head over there and post this, it will clear things up quite a bit. With what you said here in mind, it seems like you all would agree now. They (and myself) thought you meant 100% gsum, 100% of the time.
I have always agreed that you want the overall g sum max, not instantaneous g sum independently at any one time, both with respect corner to corner, or in a corner. Now, within a corner, trail braking usually applies as long as your car does not go into oversteer immediately on turn in (not very common on well set up cars and most turns).
03-04-2004, 02:32 PM
#212
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Hey JC...
You sound like John Kerry - taking both sides of an issue at once!
They are indeed classic ways of describing a goal or tool of performance driving. I think where you have a problem with them is in their application and interpretation. They can get just as easily distorted as "mint" or "original."
Mint means perfect, as in flawless, as in beyond reproach. Original means never touched, never refurbished, never changed in any way. Few things are ever mint, and something carefully restored is not original, but perhaps merely authentic.
Those terms if applied in strict accordance with their definition and purpose are just as useful and accurate as any term properly applied... or not if misapplied. They are used to try and describe something QUITE variable, esoteric, and open to interpretation. In that sense a I agree with you, as they are more-often-than-not misapplied. However, I don't misapply them so I disagree... get it?
And I disagree that lap times are the be-all and end-all of driving. If you are talking absolute max speeds, then yes they are important. If you are talking more subjective aspects of driving well, then they are irrelevant.
Methinks you've been caught out by the Demon of Sweeping Generalization. Like the terms you seem to disdain, lap times are highly interpretive as well as counterproductive... depending on ones goal. They can also be a huge distraction!
You sound like John Kerry - taking both sides of an issue at once!
They are indeed classic ways of describing a goal or tool of performance driving. I think where you have a problem with them is in their application and interpretation. They can get just as easily distorted as "mint" or "original."
Mint means perfect, as in flawless, as in beyond reproach. Original means never touched, never refurbished, never changed in any way. Few things are ever mint, and something carefully restored is not original, but perhaps merely authentic.
Those terms if applied in strict accordance with their definition and purpose are just as useful and accurate as any term properly applied... or not if misapplied. They are used to try and describe something QUITE variable, esoteric, and open to interpretation. In that sense a I agree with you, as they are more-often-than-not misapplied. However, I don't misapply them so I disagree... get it?
And I disagree that lap times are the be-all and end-all of driving. If you are talking absolute max speeds, then yes they are important. If you are talking more subjective aspects of driving well, then they are irrelevant.
Methinks you've been caught out by the Demon of Sweeping Generalization. Like the terms you seem to disdain, lap times are highly interpretive as well as counterproductive... depending on ones goal. They can also be a huge distraction!
03-04-2004, 03:10 PM
#213
Burning Brakes
We have to accept that driving the fastest possible lap is the end goal, no? Isn't that the ultimate measure circuit driving performance? If not, what is?
I understand there are times when you want to concentrate on something else for honing a specific skill.
As for the phrases, what I mean is that they are like saying "The fastest way to go through a turn is to go as fast as possible". They are true, but not useful. Drivers like them because they are jargon. Race engineers do not use this terminology as it is not meaningful.
I understand there are times when you want to concentrate on something else for honing a specific skill.
As for the phrases, what I mean is that they are like saying "The fastest way to go through a turn is to go as fast as possible". They are true, but not useful. Drivers like them because they are jargon. Race engineers do not use this terminology as it is not meaningful.
03-04-2004, 03:42 PM
#214
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Z-man:
Luckily my business success has made the budget factor very small. Yes I am married and have two young daughters, that is why I only get 2 or 3 events a year and no wheel to wheel. I hear you and was there at one time myself.
JC, Actually, lap time is the ONLY measure of performance. Now, the best way to achieve the lowest lap time is to maximize the area under the g-sum curve! I agree with your views.
Iloveporsches, if you look at my posts, I made a small correction from be at the limit 100% of the time to be as close to the limit as possible 100% of the time. I have always said the overall g sum max is the fastest but just had great difficulty getting the others to “hear” me.
Luckily my business success has made the budget factor very small. Yes I am married and have two young daughters, that is why I only get 2 or 3 events a year and no wheel to wheel. I hear you and was there at one time myself.
JC, Actually, lap time is the ONLY measure of performance. Now, the best way to achieve the lowest lap time is to maximize the area under the g-sum curve! I agree with your views.
Iloveporsches, if you look at my posts, I made a small correction from be at the limit 100% of the time to be as close to the limit as possible 100% of the time. I have always said the overall g sum max is the fastest but just had great difficulty getting the others to “hear” me.
03-04-2004, 03:50 PM
#215
Race Director
Originally posted by JC in NY
We have to accept that driving the fastest possible lap is the end goal, no? Isn't that the ultimate measure circuit driving performance? If not, what is?
We have to accept that driving the fastest possible lap is the end goal, no? Isn't that the ultimate measure circuit driving performance? If not, what is?
As a racer fast lap times are only a way to win races. Obviously laping faster than the next guy gives you a good chance to win races. However laps are not the entire story. In long races (and even short ones) things like good judgment, perserveing tires and equipment, good pit stratgey and of course actualy "racing" for corners and suchs play a role. Only some times does the guy on pole win. Only some times does the guy with fast lap in a race win the race. Of course it is hard to be SLOW and win.
In DE the objectives are really different. When I did DE my objectives were as follows.
1) Stay safe and do do anthing stupid
2) Have Fun
3) Learn something and Get faster
So where does DAS fit? Hmm it is a very expensive way to do #3. So that is not bad, but certainly not the first thing I thing guys should use.
First thing to #3 should be instructor. Use this guy to help you learn and get faster. Then you should beable to develop your butt sensor and use that. Then use engine RPM at various points to determine speed. Then you can use lap timers. Once you have gotten all you can from that. (Belive me there is ALOT to get from there) you can start dabbling in DAS and video. I some cases in can make you faster, but really I just makes things more fun for guys who want to do it. For the rest of us it can be seen as taking away from the downtime banter with friends at the track.
Oh yeah... this is a trail braking thread.... So uhh... braking just right is the fastets way around the track. No too early and not too late. Maybe a little trailbraking if you can handle it.
03-04-2004, 04:07 PM
#216
Burning Brakes
Originally posted by M758
Winning Races!
Winning Races!
Yes, it is true. Racecraft is another matter altogether. If we keep it to pure driving only, we can take that out of the equation.
03-04-2004, 04:25 PM
#217
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The one thing that wins races is consistancy. DAS will help this, but the most important factor contributing to consistancy is seat time. Nothing else can substitute. I think that at some point DAS may be important but for most of us who get about 20-30 track days and only about 2 hours each outing, working on consistancy will yield the most benefit. Even if someone were to tell me exactly what to do on track, my ability to reproduce lap after lap of perfect execution is lacking. I have taken rides with many fast drivers and what I notice is that they mostly don't drive at the absolute limit but they are extremely consistant and wear down the other drivers. The drivers they pass may have taken a string of turns faster but will eventually screw up, and that's when these guys get them.
03-05-2004, 11:27 AM
#218
Race Director
Mitch I agree here.
I typically can bang out a fast quaflier that is .3-.5 faster than what I can run for 30-40 mintues straight. Nice thing is that at that pace I can run 30 or so laps within .5 to 1 second. Typically in a race I back off just a hair so that I can consistant turn fast times. In Qualfying I push get a good lap and push a little harder usally until I start to either scare myself or get slopply and start to loose time.
I typically can bang out a fast quaflier that is .3-.5 faster than what I can run for 30-40 mintues straight. Nice thing is that at that pace I can run 30 or so laps within .5 to 1 second. Typically in a race I back off just a hair so that I can consistant turn fast times. In Qualfying I push get a good lap and push a little harder usally until I start to either scare myself or get slopply and start to loose time.
03-07-2004, 01:06 PM
#219
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Interesting thread guys. Here are four notions:
1) To reduce lap times you compromise on the line in one part to have a better friction circle at another part (normally the exit in a 911. A really fast 911 like the GT2 will prefer a later apex so as to be able to accelrate hard on the exit, this produces faster exit speeds and lower lap times for certain turns.
2) The no brakes exercise (and it is only an exercise) is an eye opener because it usually shows drivers that their entry speed is too low AND that the car will corner better than they thought especially when it is not unblanced by unskilled braking techniques.
3) When working up a new track try braking much earlier than you would normally - brake for a longer period such that the rate of deceleration is much lower than your normal technique. Most drivers find that by arriving at a corner with less decel they can better judge corner entry speed. This is brain function thing, most people have a hard time judging the right entry speed when decelerating hard. Once you have a comfortable entry speed, you can then brake later and decel more quickly.
1) To reduce lap times you compromise on the line in one part to have a better friction circle at another part (normally the exit in a 911. A really fast 911 like the GT2 will prefer a later apex so as to be able to accelrate hard on the exit, this produces faster exit speeds and lower lap times for certain turns.
2) The no brakes exercise (and it is only an exercise) is an eye opener because it usually shows drivers that their entry speed is too low AND that the car will corner better than they thought especially when it is not unblanced by unskilled braking techniques.
3) When working up a new track try braking much earlier than you would normally - brake for a longer period such that the rate of deceleration is much lower than your normal technique. Most drivers find that by arriving at a corner with less decel they can better judge corner entry speed. This is brain function thing, most people have a hard time judging the right entry speed when decelerating hard. Once you have a comfortable entry speed, you can then brake later and decel more quickly.
03-07-2004, 01:10 PM
#220
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oops..
4) Trail Braking is a very tricky term. If you mean turning while braking then almost every corner involves trail braking since we should almost always initiate the turn just as we fade off the brakes - taking advantage of a larger front contact patch. In the Jackie Stewart anecdote posted above, Jackie did not feel that the technique I just described was "trail braking", in his view it was simply the right way to initiate the turn.
4) Trail Braking is a very tricky term. If you mean turning while braking then almost every corner involves trail braking since we should almost always initiate the turn just as we fade off the brakes - taking advantage of a larger front contact patch. In the Jackie Stewart anecdote posted above, Jackie did not feel that the technique I just described was "trail braking", in his view it was simply the right way to initiate the turn.
