So who got nailed by the Mustang at VIR?
07-08-2019, 08:24 PM
#331
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There is about 720 feet from the point where his right shoulder is at the "2" marker to the end of the pavement on the left half of the road turning INTO T14.
Yes, the unloading is a significant event and does need to be factored in, but even using street car .75 cF and with a starting speed of 152 mph, without the aid of the compression going uphill, it should not take more than 488 1/2 feet to whoa that car down to near ZERO, ASSUMING that the decel rate is high and sustained with a marginal release for the unloading.
To negotiate the Turn 14 corner, he only needed to get rid of 100 mph.
Would he have gone off, anyway? Possibly. Even probably, given the inconsistent reaction time, application time and basically, he bailed on the steering.
My opinion and experience would indicate he had sufficient room and stopping power such that he could have bent the car around the corner to the left, not gone off and t-boned traffic.
This assumes that he is thinking the right way, basically GIVING UP ON ANY IDEA OF MAKING THE RIGHT HAND (T14) CORNER. Even if he had to come to a dead or rolling stop behind the car he eventually hit.
When you begin making plans for risk mitigation and you pay attention to the best execution of fundamental skills, you CAN avoid a lot of what we see here.
But this was a cascade of failures. Losing concentration in advance of the brake zone. Accelerating 100 feet beyond his previous deepest point. TOO MUCH TIME between throttle off and brake on. Too much time from brake on to max decel. Target fixation. Bailing on steering because he was looking where he DIDN'T want to go. Lots of small errors that added up to a big one.
My armchair, front of the monitor analysis, with access to all kinds of data that show people braking that late from those speeds without an issue...
Reference work: https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/vehicle_...time_upenn.pdf
Yes, the unloading is a significant event and does need to be factored in, but even using street car .75 cF and with a starting speed of 152 mph, without the aid of the compression going uphill, it should not take more than 488 1/2 feet to whoa that car down to near ZERO, ASSUMING that the decel rate is high and sustained with a marginal release for the unloading.
To negotiate the Turn 14 corner, he only needed to get rid of 100 mph.
Would he have gone off, anyway? Possibly. Even probably, given the inconsistent reaction time, application time and basically, he bailed on the steering.
My opinion and experience would indicate he had sufficient room and stopping power such that he could have bent the car around the corner to the left, not gone off and t-boned traffic.
This assumes that he is thinking the right way, basically GIVING UP ON ANY IDEA OF MAKING THE RIGHT HAND (T14) CORNER. Even if he had to come to a dead or rolling stop behind the car he eventually hit.
When you begin making plans for risk mitigation and you pay attention to the best execution of fundamental skills, you CAN avoid a lot of what we see here.
But this was a cascade of failures. Losing concentration in advance of the brake zone. Accelerating 100 feet beyond his previous deepest point. TOO MUCH TIME between throttle off and brake on. Too much time from brake on to max decel. Target fixation. Bailing on steering because he was looking where he DIDN'T want to go. Lots of small errors that added up to a big one.
My armchair, front of the monitor analysis, with access to all kinds of data that show people braking that late from those speeds without an issue...
Reference work: https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/vehicle_...time_upenn.pdf
Have you ever seen a similar crash previously at this location of VIR?
The geometry of the track there makes this braking zone different from any other that I'm familiar with. It wouldn't surprise me if many drivers, if they brake too late there, would find themselves feeling uncomfortable, unsure of what to do, and likely just stand on the brakes and pray that they don't hit anything. IMO, this braking zone especially is one where it's a good idea to think ahead and imagine what would happen if braking too late. Fortunately, most drivers probably normally get an "awkward" feeling in this braking zone (I certainly do), and combined with the high approach speed, that's probably an effective deterrent to attempt braking at the last possible moment.
07-08-2019, 08:27 PM
#332
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Excellent analysis from Peter as usual.
07-08-2019, 08:32 PM
#333
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Can anyone think of another track where the “oh $hit” (grass) run off of a braking zone after a 150mph straight shoots straight into nearby traffic perpendicular to it?
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FactoryMatt (03-26-2024)
07-08-2019, 08:34 PM
#334
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You guys are funny. Analyze/over analyze the video in the original post and are all offended at the behavior of the Mustang driver.
Since many of you consider yourselves instructors then try this at the next drivers meeting:
Show this video:
Ask the following:
1) How many of you participants are aware that if a car hits into you then you are on your own to pay for your damages
2) Do you want the waivers changed to say that one is at financial risk if they are the cause of the accident (I'll be that 95% of the people will raise their hands)
3) For those that are the other 5%, what is your justification at a D.E. event that you can drive however you feel and hit into someone that you should have no responsibility
4) For the 95% - Do you want those 5% that didn't raise their hand. Do you want them on track with you?
5) For the 95% - would you pay higher track fees for the fees that we would have to refund to the 5 to 10 participants of the 100 or so at this track day who feel they should have no responsibility (i'm betting that they will all say yes)
Since many of you consider yourselves instructors then try this at the next drivers meeting:
Show this video:
Ask the following:
1) How many of you participants are aware that if a car hits into you then you are on your own to pay for your damages
2) Do you want the waivers changed to say that one is at financial risk if they are the cause of the accident (I'll be that 95% of the people will raise their hands)
3) For those that are the other 5%, what is your justification at a D.E. event that you can drive however you feel and hit into someone that you should have no responsibility
4) For the 95% - Do you want those 5% that didn't raise their hand. Do you want them on track with you?
5) For the 95% - would you pay higher track fees for the fees that we would have to refund to the 5 to 10 participants of the 100 or so at this track day who feel they should have no responsibility (i'm betting that they will all say yes)
And that "don't be that guy" also means doesn't make a fool of yourself online.
07-08-2019, 08:35 PM
#335
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Yeah. I saw a very similar accident at Summit Point a number of years ago. Driver hit the grass at 5 and somehow crossed the track halfway around 6.Barely hit the rear fender of a car already in 6. I think it took a good bit of driver foolishness to do this.
07-08-2019, 08:35 PM
#336
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That all makes sense to me. His realization that he missed his brake point may have caused him to panic for a moment and delay his braking even further.
Have you ever seen a similar crash previously at this location of VIR?
The geometry of the track there makes this braking zone different from any other that I'm familiar with. It wouldn't surprise me if many drivers, if they brake too late there, would find themselves feeling uncomfortable, unsure of what to do, and likely just stand on the brakes and pray that they don't hit anything. IMO, this braking zone especially is one where it's a good idea to think ahead and imagine what would happen if braking too late. Fortunately, most drivers probably normally get an "awkward" feeling in this braking zone (I certainly do), and combined with the high approach speed, that's probably an effective deterrent to attempt braking at the last possible moment.
Have you ever seen a similar crash previously at this location of VIR?
The geometry of the track there makes this braking zone different from any other that I'm familiar with. It wouldn't surprise me if many drivers, if they brake too late there, would find themselves feeling uncomfortable, unsure of what to do, and likely just stand on the brakes and pray that they don't hit anything. IMO, this braking zone especially is one where it's a good idea to think ahead and imagine what would happen if braking too late. Fortunately, most drivers probably normally get an "awkward" feeling in this braking zone (I certainly do), and combined with the high approach speed, that's probably an effective deterrent to attempt braking at the last possible moment.
You're very kind, Mark. Just having the information from so many others, and having seen this before, helps.
I can't tell what went on in his head. I can say that I have "locked up" (in the head, not front tires) there myself, gone off there and other places before, so I know how easy it is to do.
But I think the lesson here is to have a plan, ALWAYS have an out and WILL YOUR VISION to LOOK where you want to go. Then, STOP the car, regardless of "making the turn,"
That's what Mario meant...
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Manifold (07-08-2019)
07-08-2019, 08:36 PM
#337
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Watkins Glen. A brake failure will take you through the 'escape' road right into cars entering the carousel. I realize now you said grass but it's sort of the same.
07-08-2019, 08:37 PM
#338
Banned
Yes. The instinct (reflex) after overcooking that corner would be to combine braking and steering to the left to maximize BOTH braking force AND the amount of asphalt on which to apply it. But that would require enough experience for this to be hardwired as a reflex, not a thought process, and for focus not to be 110% directed towards “getting” that GT3.
07-08-2019, 08:44 PM
#339
Banned
The bus stop? Yes, but plenty of asphalt available in the escape road and plenty of room to the left to escape the traffic that’s also going almost in the same direction (instead of perpendicular to it). Total brake failure would be messy, but overcooking it would cause no problem in most cases.
07-08-2019, 09:53 PM
#341
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That was for sure a code brown moment for the driver who was squeezed/bumped off track. All grass, no grip to slow down. I felt the urge to stomp the brake pedal I didn't have while sitting in my recliner!
07-08-2019, 10:02 PM
#342
Originally Posted by Carrera51
Excellent analysis from Peter as usual.
07-08-2019, 10:04 PM
#343
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I was scared ****less by that video, for sure...
07-09-2019, 12:04 AM
#344
The back straight at Road Atlanta comes to mind. It has a fast downhill braking zone that is prone to being ‘over-cooked’. Now most people go off straight into the sand trap however if a driver tries to pull and make the left into T10A at speed, chances are that they would barrel into a car rounding T10B. My first time at Road Atlanta, I paid particularly attention to the braking zone at the end of the back straight (that and T12).
07-09-2019, 04:41 AM
#345
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Would be interesting to see the data from the Mustang. It sure looked like he may have experienced some pad knock back and when he went to apply the brakes, pedal went to the floor and he didn't know what to do. You could hear him come off the throttle and go to the brakes yet the car did not slow as it did on the previous lap.