177mph

According to other threads - get a timing system and track insurance!

Paul Solk

Couple of things? You say you want to know if "the car" can go faster... What's the car? What type of lap times are you running at the Glen? If you are still making 2 second jumps at a time I would wager a guess there is plenty left in the car. It's when you can't find .02 anymore you would have to question if there is anything left. As Frank said, what are your lap times, theoretical best (more an indicator of the car) and rolling laps (more an indicator of the driver?) Without data this is a conversation, not an analysis...

A few people telling you that you're driving as fast as the car can go really means nothing here.

Next, can you go fast consistently and understand why? Don't be lap time fixated, lap times should only come after consistency has been established. If you found 2 seconds at the Glen did you find it consistently? Are you able to make those 2 seconds quicker laps your comfortable laps? Ideally I strive for my fast lap to become my consistent laps then search for more time. Last year I ran one 2:05.7 lap at the Glen but ALL my other laps were 07's... This year I knocked out 50+ 2:05 laps with the quickest being .2 quicker than last year. My rolling and theoretical both show an additional half second to one second available. So yes, I can still "get more out of the car"

Finally, you say this what is holding you back from mods to the car... I get that, I ran on Bilstein PSS9 until my crew told me we ran out of adjustments. Then I upgraded. What mods do you want to do and why?

grrrmonster

Bet you dinner anywhere in the world that your opportunity for gains will come from braking. Spent quite a bit of time with race engineer from leading IMSA prototype team, looking at data, discussing how car set up decisions are made. Was stunned at his feedback from looking at my data from Midohio (my home track, been driving it over 30 years). He immediately honed in on the braking data, while data curves looked good, the threshold levels of braking g forces were not consistent with the lateral load data.

Most humbling comment: "we won't change anything in the setup until driver data is showing correct data curve shape and thresholds". His further insights were focused on braking, how it plays such a key role in getting the most out of the tires ability to provide mechanical grip.

Best demo I've ever seen of what he was saying: watch the YouTube video of Fernando Alonzo at the 2019 ROLEX 24- his first stint in the rain. Cars are virtually equal in qualifying times, BoP rules yet Alonzo simply dominates everyone in that stint. Careful scrutiny of what's going on and you can see it's how used braking to an advantage that gives an appearance that the car is dramatically faster. The car wasn't faster, his brake use was just that much more efficient

Use something to gather data. Even as crude as what Harry's Lap Timer provides, you can get data to help you with your technique.

Guess what I've been working on in my last few weekends at the track

gh0st

Thank you all for your responses so far. I attached a picture from the data logging software I’m using right now (I’m looking into the apex pro now). The picture shows speed and combined G starting at turn 6 at Watkins Glen. What I interpret here is me dithering between the brake and gas pedal on entry, which can certainly be cleaned up. How does the rest of the curve look? Is that too peaky and not round enough? I know there is no scale here, but the max g is 1.3

Paul Solk

What type of car is this in? I see mid 2:30 lap times so really curious what vehicle we are talking about here... I also see a best of 2:33 and a last of 2:37, what caused the 4 second delta between laps? If a 2:33 was your best, how many 2:33's did you run consistently?

gh0st

the car is a stock 1990 miata with sway bars, a tweaked alignment, race pads and wider wheels that let me run a 205 street tire.

These lap times are at an HPDE event, so getting clean laps can be tough. I can routinely run a 2:33 without trying hard. Had a few 2:32 and my best was a 2:31.02. Data software is saying I have an optimum of 2:30.64. What got me that 2:31.02? I’m not entirely sure, i did take 6 better and looking at the data I was just carrying more speed everywhere. I’m still not at the point where the car is slipping every where just through the bus stop and 9.

The only mods I want are ones that will improve my skill. Suspension would probably be up first so I can get used to quicker transitions. The car takes practically half a second to roll over and take a set right now.

Paul Solk

Haha, so that alone should tell you there is more...

If it were me I would go out and target 32's... Make them comfortable and really understand where and why the improvements/consistency are coming... Then you move to that single 31 lap and make that consistent... Until you are running that single fast lap consistently with a firm understanding of what got you there I'd hold off on the mods. Just me though. Invest in data and a coach instead, money much better spent in the long run!!!
Seek out someone like a Stevan McAleer even who has a ton of seat time in a Miata, just my .02 but seat time, coaching and data should come before any mods to try and find time...

DTMiller

Just looking at turn 9 there's grip (and therefore time) on the table.

More broadly, your data looks a lot like mine did a few years ago, I haven't changed my car dramatically and I'm now running my 97 Miata about 10 seconds faster than I was then at WGI and VIR and about 5 seconds faster at SP and PittRace. As mentioned above, start focusing on how you are using the brake pedal to make the car do what you want, there's more in the car (of course, there is always more in the car).

gh0st

haha, I guess so. Maybe I should have posed the question as “how much is left in the car?”

You can say that again. I’ve been running this car for 7 years just like this. I’m still not in a hurry to burn money to go faster when I’m not racing. Only racing against myself here.

Paul Solk

I can only say a day at the track with someone like @ProCoach who would be able to bring their own data tools and really show you what's transpiring vs what you think is transpiring is life changing as a driver.

I've worked with a number of coaches and there is not a single thing on my car that gained me more time than those coaches did Other than maybe my VBox which is a coach in of itself!!

ProCoach

FIFY

Yep. Times that by every time the car slows down and turns and you’ve got a fair bit of the lap that the grip of the car (the potential) is underutilized...

I don’t make lap time lost calculations unless I use larger sectors (through the corner and the subsequent straight).

Almost every driver I have information for is not consistent enough over a whole lap to not make the loss up (or lose more) somewhere else.

The goal is the best execution of fundamental skills, period. Those that do better, and discipline themselves not to lose the lap with some uncalculated lunge or brain fart, go faster. Period.

Frank’s TBL is a great tool, but you need to dissect carefully how that flowing brilliance occurred and put in place the foundation of knowledge and a carefully detailed plan to do it ALL the time. That is HARD work, unless you have the right measuring hardware and a fair bit of cross-sectional experience.

You can’t just “wing it.” And you can’t just pay yourself on the back at the bar at the end of the day and trade TBL’s!

The best drivers shave the changes in speed they make into such fine increments, butting right up against and usually VERY slightly OVER the limit, but so little over that you can hardly see it, many, many times under:

1) Application of brakes from WOT
2) Sustained braking against the traction limit while rubbing up against the limit of platform stability
3) Timing the release and location of brake release to balance the end of slowing in a straightline and blending into steering (corner) scrub when initiated
4) Having the patience to wait until the car is pointed in the right direction
5) pick up throttle proactively so that you’re fighting traction to get out of the corner.

It’s so much fun studying what people do. I know few folks who do it as well as as they’d like to, and most not as well as the people that are really exceptional.

Do you need someone with a blazing reference lap? While it can boot strap progress and reveal low hanging fruit, it’s still comparison to another variable.

The reason why Leh, Cory, Patrick and others are so quick is that they’ve already worked it all out. They know where they want to go and what they want to do when they get there, they know how the car is going to move and they MAKE it move, and bit for a little while or distance.

It’s really fun to watch. It’s confidence and competence. It’s fun! But as people study and practice, they are capable of improving, too. There is no car that cannot be driven quicker by someone else.

ProCoach

grrrmonster and Paul Solk have great answers. I’ll add few work as hard as Paul does at the craft.

Thundermoose

Winning spec Miata times at the Glen are in the 2:15's if that helps judge your car's capabilities.

bcp2011

Could you elaborate a bit on the above so we can benefit from this insight? Specifically what curve and thresholds he's looking for? Thanks!

ProCoach

This has been my experience as well, gathered over thirty years working with thousands of drivers, including Daytona, Le Mans and Sebring winners and a WDC.

People drive to what they THINK the car will do, not to what it WILL do.

The rise time (brake aggression), consistency in a high, perfect level of deceleration for the shortest period of time, then blending the decay into the cornering phase at a high level, such that the tire load is balanced across the entire execution is one of the most important ingredients in going VERY fast...

The Alonso example is excellent.