Do lap timers encourage bad behavior?
06-10-2019, 12:37 PM
#151
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You read this entire thread and that’s the conclusion you came up with ? Jeez.
the proliferation of track insurance has caused more incidents , more aggressive driving and used by SOME to go faster and have more risk tolerance .
its easy to see with the higher rate of incidents and with car to car collisions “racing” at hpde events
and yeah ... ppl will readily admit to this in real life ... not on car forums
the proliferation of track insurance has caused more incidents , more aggressive driving and used by SOME to go faster and have more risk tolerance .
its easy to see with the higher rate of incidents and with car to car collisions “racing” at hpde events
and yeah ... ppl will readily admit to this in real life ... not on car forums
In order for insurance to work the number of people making claims have to be very small in comparison to those who don't make claims. Your statement that people with track insurance drive recklessly just doesn't stand up to logic. More to the point, the fact that there are insurance underwriters out there writing these policies year after year is proof that you are incorrect.
I feel bad about some of the replies you are getting but you come right back swinging with this crap so maybe you enjoy making this ridiculous argument.
06-10-2019, 12:41 PM
#152
Three Wheelin'
Lap times do not encourage bad behavior ... Over the years my lap times to and from the office have safely and greatly improved !! 
06-10-2019, 01:59 PM
#153
Maybe its just a matter of semantics with yesyoucan's comments. Let me explain:
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
06-10-2019, 02:10 PM
#154
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Maybe its just a matter of semantics with yesyoucan's comments. Let me explain:
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
06-10-2019, 02:17 PM
#155
06-10-2019, 03:24 PM
#156
Rennlist Member
Maybe its just a matter of semantics with yesyoucan's comments. Let me explain:
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
06-10-2019, 03:54 PM
#157
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Maybe its just a matter of semantics with yesyoucan's comments. Let me explain:
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
06-10-2019, 04:10 PM
#158
Having spent my formative years at an insurance underwriter, and understanding how insurance works, I will tell you that most track insurance companies will give a driver one, maybe two claims, before they are cancelled.
In order for insurance to work the number of people making claims have to be very small in comparison to those who don't make claims. Your statement that people with track insurance drive recklessly just doesn't stand up to logic. More to the point, the fact that there are insurance underwriters out there writing these policies year after year is proof that you are incorrect.
I feel bad about some of the replies you are getting but you come right back swinging with this crap so maybe you enjoy making this ridiculous argument.
In order for insurance to work the number of people making claims have to be very small in comparison to those who don't make claims. Your statement that people with track insurance drive recklessly just doesn't stand up to logic. More to the point, the fact that there are insurance underwriters out there writing these policies year after year is proof that you are incorrect.
I feel bad about some of the replies you are getting but you come right back swinging with this crap so maybe you enjoy making this ridiculous argument.
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06-10-2019, 04:12 PM
#159
Maybe its just a matter of semantics with yesyoucan's comments. Let me explain:
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
1. When I started DEs, I didn't have a half-cage or harnesses I drove with my stock 3-pt seatbelt. As I got faster, and advanced to higher run-groups, numerous instructors and track friends suggested I install better safety equipment. So I did.
2. For a while after I installed my half-cage and harnesses, I didn't purchase track insurance religiously for every event. i had this 'method' where I would purchase track insurance for tracks that I deemed particularly unforgiving (e.g., WGI with its ever present blue ARMCO and walls) but not for others like NJMP Thunderbolt (i.e., tracks with lots of run-off which I deemed less risky)
3. As I got faster at most of our PCA region's 'local' tracks, I began purchasing annual track insurance after witnessing a particularly serious incident at Road Atlanta, during a bucket list trip to RA with some friends at a great event run by Chin.
To some, it may appear that "I drive fast because I have track insurance", however that would be inaccurate. I don't drive fast BECAUSE I have track insurance, I have track insurance BECAUSE i'm on track with people who are driving very fast and statistically the probability of me being involved in an incident is higher so I need risk mitigation/damage protection. I think yesyoucan's observation is correct (most drivers in upper run groups who are pushing a fast pace may very well have track insurance), however I believe his conclusion is slightly flawed (these people have track insurance because they, and others, are driving fast and not the other way around...they are not driving fast simply because they have track insurance and don't care if they crash). I hope this makes sense.
Most drivers in GREEN and YELLOW lower run groups do not have half-cages, harnesses and/or HANS devices but as they progress, most drivers install more safety equipment. You could equally draw the wrong conclusion that people are driving faster because they have more safety equipment (ignoring for a moment, that there are some tangible benefits to being strapped in). That would be incorrect. IMHO its just that the more we engage in this sport/hobby the more we realize that we need more safety and protection for both ourselves AND our cars (track insurance). yesyoucan observations might be valid but he may have the cause & effect reversed or backwards. Hope this is clear
06-10-2019, 05:03 PM
#160
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Looks like Lockton knows what's up in that neck of the woods and is being smart about what they will and won't cover. Sometimes a particular group can develop a culture which fosters an attitude of aggressive and risky driving, and it makes sense to not offer them track insurance (unless the premium is set high enough to cover the added risk).
06-10-2019, 05:38 PM
#161
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I think some of you are misunderstanding.... Here is my go to thing (it appears this is specific to my area and the various track organizers since just about every other track/track group does not have an asertisk around the country). Lockton won't cover specific groups. these groups are not covered whether at Thunderhill or Sonoma Raceway either. If one tracks with these people then they would make the same conclusion without even looking at this table from Lockton.
What you stated at the start was that insurance causes reckless driving and that you can spot drivers who are insured based on their driving. That is the statement I take issue with.
Again, you can believe what you want to believe but in my years of HPDE and racing I have NEVER ONCE attributed someone's driving to being insured. It also has not affected my driving.
Looks like Lockton knows what's up in that neck of the woods and is being smart about what they will and won't cover. Sometimes a particular group can develop a culture which fosters an attitude of aggressive and risky driving, and it makes sense to not offer them track insurance (unless the premium is set high enough to cover the added risk).
06-10-2019, 06:54 PM
#162
I think some of you are misunderstanding.... Here is my go to thing (it appears this is specific to my area and the various track organizers since just about every other track/track group does not have an asertisk around the country). Lockton won't cover specific groups. these groups are not covered whether at Thunderhill or Sonoma Raceway either. If one tracks with these people then they would make the same conclusion without even looking at this table from Lockton.
Track insurances cover HPDE with non-competitive, non-timed, PASS SIGNAL, negotiated passing. Risk of incidents increase greatly with Open passing because not all of the drivers may be aware while being passed (or while passing) at all times. i.e. Car A being passed didn't see Car B coming up, turns in toward apex, and BANG with Car B who was passing him on the inside. FYI, track awareness is - in general - terrible at HPDEs, even in "Advanced" groups. Most of the truly advanced drivers know that many drivers in Advanced groups are not, in fact, advanced. I know this because I'm a pro coach.
Again, insurances won't cover Open Passing groups (because of higher incidence likelihood) and hence the exclusion or asterisk or whatever you want to call it. You know, it takes all of 30 seconds in talking to the insurance reps (or reading online) to find this out..... This is a stated general policy, not some secret conspiracy. Most track insurances = no open passing, no time trials, no racing.
I just don't understand how you see 1+1 then conclude 2,586 * x - y / z in your head. Then CONTINUE to argue how 1+1 is NOT 2.
06-10-2019, 07:59 PM
#163
This is more of your failed logic. These groups or events are not covered due to OPEN PASSING. Not because people are using insurance to drive recklessly, but because of OPEN PASSING.
Track insurances cover HPDE with non-competitive, non-timed, PASS SIGNAL, negotiated passing. Risk of incidents increase greatly with Open passing because not all of the drivers may be aware while being passed (or while passing) at all times. i.e. Car A being passed didn't see Car B coming up, turns in toward apex, and BANG with Car B who was passing him on the inside. FYI, track awareness is - in general - terrible at HPDEs, even in "Advanced" groups. Most of the truly advanced drivers know that many drivers in Advanced groups are not, in fact, advanced. I know this because I'm a pro coach.
Again, insurances won't cover Open Passing groups (because of higher incidence likelihood) and hence the exclusion or asterisk or whatever you want to call it. You know, it takes all of 30 seconds in talking to the insurance reps (or reading online) to find this out..... This is a stated general policy, not some secret conspiracy. Most track insurances = no open passing, no time trials, no racing.
I just don't understand how you see 1+1 then conclude 2,586 * x - y / z in your head. Then CONTINUE to argue how 1+1 is NOT 2.
Track insurances cover HPDE with non-competitive, non-timed, PASS SIGNAL, negotiated passing. Risk of incidents increase greatly with Open passing because not all of the drivers may be aware while being passed (or while passing) at all times. i.e. Car A being passed didn't see Car B coming up, turns in toward apex, and BANG with Car B who was passing him on the inside. FYI, track awareness is - in general - terrible at HPDEs, even in "Advanced" groups. Most of the truly advanced drivers know that many drivers in Advanced groups are not, in fact, advanced. I know this because I'm a pro coach.
Again, insurances won't cover Open Passing groups (because of higher incidence likelihood) and hence the exclusion or asterisk or whatever you want to call it. You know, it takes all of 30 seconds in talking to the insurance reps (or reading online) to find this out..... This is a stated general policy, not some secret conspiracy. Most track insurances = no open passing, no time trials, no racing.
I just don't understand how you see 1+1 then conclude 2,586 * x - y / z in your head. Then CONTINUE to argue how 1+1 is NOT 2.
The logic is not failed. Like I said earlier.... come by and track over this way.
A person earlier had asked me if I track with PCA (I have not). Closest group I was going to track with was Porsche Owners Club which had a time trial group as part of their race day... The fastest lap time in the time trials wouldn't even make the cut off lap time for Speed sf open passing group and would probably get knocked down a level in Exclusive Track Days (two of the groups where the open passing group vibe is a race).
06-10-2019, 08:11 PM
#164
This is more of your failed logic. These groups or events are not covered due to OPEN PASSING. Not because people are using insurance to drive recklessly, but because of OPEN PASSING.
Track insurances cover HPDE with non-competitive, non-timed, PASS SIGNAL, negotiated passing. Risk of incidents increase greatly with Open passing because not all of the drivers may be aware while being passed (or while passing) at all times. i.e. Car A being passed didn't see Car B coming up, turns in toward apex, and BANG with Car B who was passing him on the inside. FYI, track awareness is - in general - terrible at HPDEs, even in "Advanced" groups. Most of the truly advanced drivers know that many drivers in Advanced groups are not, in fact, advanced. I know this because I'm a pro coach.
Again, insurances won't cover Open Passing groups (because of higher incidence likelihood) and hence the exclusion or asterisk or whatever you want to call it. You know, it takes all of 30 seconds in talking to the insurance reps (or reading online) to find this out..... This is a stated general policy, not some secret conspiracy. Most track insurances = no open passing, no time trials, no racing.
I just don't understand how you see 1+1 then conclude 2,586 * x - y / z in your head. Then CONTINUE to argue how 1+1 is NOT 2.
Track insurances cover HPDE with non-competitive, non-timed, PASS SIGNAL, negotiated passing. Risk of incidents increase greatly with Open passing because not all of the drivers may be aware while being passed (or while passing) at all times. i.e. Car A being passed didn't see Car B coming up, turns in toward apex, and BANG with Car B who was passing him on the inside. FYI, track awareness is - in general - terrible at HPDEs, even in "Advanced" groups. Most of the truly advanced drivers know that many drivers in Advanced groups are not, in fact, advanced. I know this because I'm a pro coach.
Again, insurances won't cover Open Passing groups (because of higher incidence likelihood) and hence the exclusion or asterisk or whatever you want to call it. You know, it takes all of 30 seconds in talking to the insurance reps (or reading online) to find this out..... This is a stated general policy, not some secret conspiracy. Most track insurances = no open passing, no time trials, no racing.
I just don't understand how you see 1+1 then conclude 2,586 * x - y / z in your head. Then CONTINUE to argue how 1+1 is NOT 2.
makes perfect sense to me.
06-10-2019, 08:16 PM
#165
Not necessarily insurance related... but let me copy/paste a random youtube video caption from Sonoma Raceway (note: 6 crashes on one day is higher then usual. Typical is 3 cars but I've seen as many as 5 cars on a typical track day at Sonoma):
Cory Chalker
Published on Jan 1, 2019
SUBSCRIBE 195
I raced a Corvette at Sonoma raceway. The first day the instructors scarred us by saying how dangerous the track is, and for good reason there were 6 car crashes that day. I learned a lot on this track and had lots of fun driving a Corvette. Connect with me on Social Media Twitter @corychalker Instagram @corychalker
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Cory Chalker
Published on Jan 1, 2019
SUBSCRIBE 195
I raced a Corvette at Sonoma raceway. The first day the instructors scarred us by saying how dangerous the track is, and for good reason there were 6 car crashes that day. I learned a lot on this track and had lots of fun driving a Corvette. Connect with me on Social Media Twitter @corychalker Instagram @corychalker
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