This ACTUALLY Happened
 

At VIR with FSR on Friday. I had a student in Blue Group who was Solo rated by MOR at Mid-Ohio but was new to VIR. The assumption was that he would get quickly up to speed and could get signed off solo at VIR. In the day’s third session, as we approached the climbing uphill esses, a waving White flag was thrown. Assuming the student had not seen it, I asked, “What’s a Waving White?” Without hesitation, he braked hard and came to a full stop in the esses within view of the flag station. How I am alive today, I do not know.

Always a crap shoot at the beginning of the day.

Sounds like it should have been yellow and white flag if they were waving the white flag. White with yellow is a common combination.

A full stop...wow.

And people like this are allowed to vote and reproduce

For a track peasant - can we get a readers digest of the above?

Holy smokes... smdh...

While that's a good idea, it's not a requirement. Heck, I've raced through white flags (no yellow) into Big Bend on Labor Day... Think of the prize money! ;)

White flag usually means a slower moving vehicle ahead. No action is required. A red flag indicates an urgent emergency somewhere on track, requiring all cars to come to a controlled safe stop within sight of a nearby corner station.

This ding dong made a staggeringly huge and very dangerous mistake

Thank you kind sir.

Yikes! I was supposed to be there this w/end and would have been instructing, but out recovering from some injuries.
Always good to quiz students on flag meanings before going out.... Sometimes I remember to. :rolleyes:

The drivers meeting yesterday and this morning had a comprehensive review of the flags, including the white one...

Ain’t that part of mandatory drivers briefings? It should, and it was in all track days I have joined so far.

I'ts always part of the novice student classroom sessions but Blue and above students are usually assumed to know their flags.

Yes FSR goes over the flags in the drivers meeting, but folk have a tendency to hear things and not remember them, especially when under stress. Learning a new track can be stressful, especially one as complex as VIR. Then if you have a student the knows the flags, the next challenge is getting them to look at the flagging stations.

Careful, you'll get the thread thrown into P&C!

It's funny that this goes both ways - full stop when not called for and full steam ahead for a red flag.

I've been fortunate to only have been in one red flag race - 2018 PCA at Summit Point. Car flipped in the rain.

And.. Check your mirrors first before slowing down for the Red Flag or you might get a fast mover who didn't see the flag go right up your tail pipe.

You raise a hell of a good point.

It's because people aren't paying attention...

Still think we need drills.

Or checking their smartphones during the briefing; I have seen that and I hate it because I will be sharing the track with them.

Our chief steward has been racing since 1965. He has been awesome for us since he has so much experience. He once got clobbered in a red flag situation at the exit of the carousel at Sears Point by a racer who missed a flag. He was stationary and got injured, though it was not life threatening. He uses that experience at times when addressing our group.

I have been in several red flag situations, thankfully none serious. The least serious one was as I was entering 10 at Thunderhill-- I missed it. Caught it at 11. Luckily the issue was on the other side of the track, and that the sight lines where I was were excellent. That happened over 10 years ago but I will never forget.

As we accumulate experience with this hobby most of us see a broad range of "incidents." That I think is expected. What I wonder is whether the rate of accumulating these experiences is greater now since so many folks may be participating with less than sober attitudes. Hard to say.

During these past 5-10 years I have read lots of posts in these forums about run group colors and what drivers should and should not know, et cetera. It seems that there is a much broader range of expectations, and of course the internet seems to have somewhat diluted core information about many aspects of enjoying this hobby optimally and safely.

I think the "apparent forgiveness" of many of the new tracks can potentially compromise the sobriety of participants. And of course the street/DE cars are more capable from the showroom as manufacturers have embraced the hobby as a natural extension of capitaliism.

My former student's animation "Flat Out" was very telling for me when it initially made the rounds on the 'net. It was inspired by a culture that I did not know had developed. He had bridged that gap (he was for a time a PCA CDI), and I think his video was interesting commentary. And perhaps should have been taken as a bit of a heads up.

I have learned that it is really, really easy to get indignant, appalled and so on when these things happen-- especially as I age. Social media tools like these forums fan those flames.

In the case of the incident here, what I wonder most of all is what kinds of conversations were had after the driver pulled over. Id est, how it was handled by the instructor and any others involved. And does anyone with knowledge of the situation feel that learning occurred.

What does the color of the flag matter if the student did not see it? Yes, the flag interpretation was very poor, but the original mistake was not seeing it at all...

-Mike

I like to use this with new sales people to illustrate who in an organization they should be targeting (the one in four capable and aware) but it is perfectly applicable here: In this case the driver in question is lower left, Neither Capable Nor Aware
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...eaa4240327.png

As an instructor, which is more effective?

A. A flag test
or
B. "White flag waving, look out for a slow moving vehicle ahead"


Tell them what they need to know until proven otherwise.

I would expect a previously solo'ed driver on a solo check ride at a new track to know what the flag colors mean.

-Mike

It looks like the driver had two issues:

1. Didn’t see the flag
2. Didn’t know what a white flag means

The instructor pointed out the white flag and learned a lot about his student at that time. Unfortunately it a bad experience that could have gone terribly wrong.

As an instructor your job is to help the student stay safe and learn. Tell them what they need to know. Assuming they should know something will lead to some really bad outcomes. Make them prove it to you.

In a situation with a non-solo student I don't disagree, but this was a solo check ride (at least I assume so as the driver was previously solo qualified and working for a solo signoff).

IMHO a "solo check ride" muddies the water a bit. By definition, the check ride is a short snapshot of the driver and instructor's job in this case is to evaluate student knowledge of track procedures and rules. If the instructor had said "white flag, slow vehicles on track" he would not have learned the student didn't know what the white flag means. The missed flag, at the vary least, would have caused a failure for this check ride if it were me.

This leads us back to the credentials problem recently discussed on the Chin thread. I would argue this student either lied about his credentials or the other driving organization promoted someone too soon. I don't expect that learning a new track would cause an otherwise solid solo to forget what the flags mean.

Getting on my soapbox for a moment, I expect that in addition to seeing flags and handling traffic, a solo should have the judgement to know when they are in over their heads as nobody else will be in the car if that happens. Thus a statement to the instructor similar to "can you watch for flags while I learn the track" would be appropriate and could be accommodated easily pushing the solo check ride back. The student is responsible for safety as well - more so as they rise through the ranks.

-Mike

Peter, I fully agree with the drills as you know

Mike, in theory you're right. However, VIR is a very challenging track to be new at, and there are some spots where it's really easy to get tunnel vision, soloed or not. Same as at COTA. That no excuse for the two potentially fatal mistakes this driver made. That said, whenever I ride with someone who is new to a track, especially a complicated one, I do what Tim mentioned: "Ok did you see that white flag? I guess there's a slow mover up ahead we will have to go around"

Trust...but verify.

Because my life literally depends upon it.

..

When you can quote the Gipper and use it in a racing context you have checked all the boxes.

Track and street - always assume someone is going to get it wrong and be ready for it.

Ok, point taken. Never driven VIR, but I do know that flags and evaluating students for flags at COTA is challenging due to the flag stations at COTA being practically invisible unless they display a flag - it makes having the students call out all the manned flag stations displaying a flag or not impractical.

-Mike

I will chime in here, because it's a topic about which I get frustrated. I have driven eight-plus times with Chin (which I love) and a few dozen with various PCA groups. On the whole, flag reviews in drivers' meetings get short shrift most of the time. At best, there's a quick run through of the meanings of the flags but not nearly enough review of what action to take upon seeing the flags.

Also, particularly with PCA groups, there's pressure, even if it's self-imposed, to get up to speed quickly once the session starts, with little attention to learning the track and the location of flag stations. Chin, at least, provides the 30-minute warmup session under Yellow, so drivers can learn the lines and identify flag stations.

Word to track-day organizers: Spend MUCH more time (which could be all of ten or 15 minutes, BTW) on actions to take upon seeing various flags. This is certainly an area where organizers can never over communicate.

Also, word to instructors, particularly those doing check-out rides: Regardless of claimed or actual driver experience, a three-minute quiz on flag meanings and reactions before leaving the pits would be time very well spent.

After all, we all know the consequences of assumptions. And in the case of HPDE, the consequences could be much worse than simply making an a$$ out of yourself.

Great post!

+1

With CVR, from Green to Black, every driver attends the driver meeting and gets the full explanation of each flag.

I've driven with other groups that have said "OK, you all know what this flag means" and moved on.

Yesterday, at the FSR-PCA drivers meeting (and I think FSR-PCA is VERY good, comparatively, an excellent culture), they asked if anyone had NOT been at the drivers meeting Friday. Two people raised their hands, so they said, we're going to give the COMPLETE and comprehensive flag talk.

Someone behind me swore under their breath...

You know, until the mindset evident behind me gets fixed, we're going to continue with issues of flag awareness, appropriate response and compliance in all groups and organizations. A damned shame.

Sure, we've all heard it. You know what? We can stand to hear it again. Until there is full compliance, we can ALWAYS afford the time to hear it again.

Maybe the heat's getting to me, but I have less patience for this than I used to.

Last week at the Glen during the Zone 1 three day DE they gave a very good driver's meeting with full explanations of the flags along with what to do and NOT to do when seeing them. Afterwards, my buddies girlfriend who wasn't driving says "wow.. that's a lot of stuff to remember when your going 125.." and she's right. After four years and 36 days on track I still listen closely to every word they have to say. Let it be pounded over and over in to your head.

In heated cat n mouses with a friend or nemesis you're chasing on track when your laser focusing on them I constantly say "look at the flag station, look at the flag station".

My first time with Chin was at VIR this past March. Before my checkout ride, I had to complete an online flag test. It took about 1 minute.

At the time I thought it was silly. Of course I know the flags. But now I understand the purpose.

Maybe this should be mandatory before solo signoff with all groups.

Absolutely, even with over a decade of doing this I still review the flags and SCCA GCR each season. I want to program in the on track procedures, so the appropriate response is automatic. At a DE, folks see the Green, Yellow, Blue/Yellow (passing), Black (All) and Checkered flags fairly frequently. But, the Yellow/Red stripped, Meat-ball, White and thankfully Red are not often displayed and a paused or wrong response to these can be catastrophic.

Yep, poor attitudes are too often displayed by too many at the track. I know, peoples' time is tight in the morning, but keeping yourself and other safe and your property is worth it. This is probably the same mentality possessed by those that run red lights on the street. Folks think that until that light IS red they can continue on. However, the yellow actually means "prepare to be stopped." And, how do prepare to be stopped? By applying the brakes. I don't know how many times I've had the lights turn green and sat there, while 1-2-3-4 cars continue through an intersection. Ridiculous! I also, recall a driver's meeting at a race, where a driver was arguing with SOM about the the Purple-35 instituted at VIR. If you are getting "red-mist" with the SOM over a flagging procedure,I personally don't want you on the track with me. I don't know how you screen or educate out poor attitudes, but wish we could.

I think some of the impatience is driven by ignorance that not all tracks/organizations use the same flags. If one does not go to a geographically diverse number of tracks (I'm one of these people) then a mindset can set in that it's all the same everywhere. Specifically teaching this situation could help along the lines of "I know a lot of the locals know this, but this is how we will be doing flags this weekend..." during the driver's meeting plus a specific bullet item in the classroom.

Another angle is perhaps standardizing the flags across the country. Perhaps naive, but how hard could that be? It's not like there are a lot of them (locally we use 10 aspects).

-Mike

OUCH!!!

Was talking to an instructor who had a green/beginner student ~ student came to a complete stop, on track, in a blind corner, because he had traffic behind him.

Who remembers the gym teacher (head flagger) giving the flag talks at Pocono. He used to be there for all the Metro events. His flag talk was awesome!

Coach Hines?

Not the heat Peter, you're just getting old.... :cheers:

I've seen many drivers meetings where participants are having full on conversations during the meeting. This goes both ways as Ive also seen lots of drivers meetings where the chief instructor running the meeting is waxing on about personal stories and funny anecdotes from the night before. Missing flags and not knowing what they mean is truly dangerous for everyone.

Live blogging from a chin event. Drivers meeting did not cover flags. Group meeting same thing except some guy asked if a red is thrown whether he should stop or go to the pits. This is in intermediate with a Maclaren and other expensive cars...

Red to the pits is FIA flagging. While not as common in the US, it is used at some events.

I'm surprised they didn't cover flags in the general meeting.

Not to pick on Chin, because they don't have a monopoly on this phenomenon, but arguably there is NOTHING more important to cover at a drivers' meeting than what actions to take upon seeing the different flags.

There's also nothing that could be repeated and quizzed more frequently than actions to take with various flags.

Talking and sort of listening is a crappy way to learn something that is a visual cue seen under some degree of stress.

If we collectively actually cared about this topic (as we seem to agree re. safety) then flag drills should be run at every event.

Best to learn, review, execute with simulation rather than blah blah blah that apparently few people listen to.

I've asked that question more than once at COTA drivers meetings because it does vary.

Seriously? I don’t mean that in a dismissive way just really surprised. In my limited experience with about ten orgs red is always a safe and controlled stop with view of a corner station offline.

Agreed. First session out today I gave a point by as I saw a yellow. Viper blew by about 40mph faster the next second... I was in my checkout ride so the car was noted as passing under yellow.

Yes, my first event at COTA was with a group that used the FIA rule. Since then I always made a point to be sure I knew which rule was in effect. Most times it's covered in the drivers meeting. But if not, I ask.

To be honest I prefer the FIA rule. Being stopped on a track I feel like a sitting duck. Have had two near misses due to drivers not seeing the red and flying past my stopped car.

Spot on

Regarding COTA, they are unique in the US. They run on FIA rules which means red flag equates to black flag all. Some events they run use this approach. PCA and a few other groups overrule this and use the more common US meaning of red.

I usually run with NASA and starting in group 2 (out of 4) they run live flag drills with red and black flags. Anyone not seeing them will have a conversation and not be allowed to progress if they intend to do that during that weekend. So I think the solution is to help drill it in, no pun intended.

Second, sometimes you really need to stop. There was a 7 car incident this past weekend at mid o where a driver spun in thunder valley in a race. That’s a blind downhill corner so if you’re going into it not expecting to stop very quickly it’ll be ugly.

All of the PCA DE events with my local region (Allegheny) cover the flags and their functions at the drivers meeting.

Just FYI: The standard Chin drivers meeting format is to have one large group meeting and then split into 4 groups: novice, intermediate, advanced and instructors groups. The flags are always covered in the novice group meeting.

Perhaps that's the point--only in the novice group meeting and not in any of the more advanced groups...because it's presumed to be known. Bad presumption. As another poster wrote, several of the flags rarely come out, thus making it easier to not remember, particularly under pressure.

Not sure if this will go through

I ran this weekend with OnGrid.

They have some pretty good rules.

Among them;

Passing under yellow earns you a black flag.

Spin or get two wheels off under yellow earns black flag

Two off track events in one session you are off track for one session earns two black flags

Three black flags during the event you are done for the day

Surprised at how many earn the three black flag award

Yes, that's the point. Especially in groups like Chin where the closing speeds are pretty insane it's easy to miss a flag if you're not paying 100% attention. In intermediate today there was a stockish Miata and a Ferrari 458 race car of some sort, along with a bunch of GT3 RSs, Vettes, etc. on R7s.

Why would you give a point by to pass when there was no passing allowed (under yellow)?

Arm was already out as I saw the sign.

PLNewman - sounds like you really get the best students. Wow.

Further more on Gary's question. If you see a yellow flag do a service to those behind you to alert them as best as you can. (slow down predictably ). You could just as easily be the car behind and not able to see the flag come out as soon as the leading car should. DE is a great place to practice this. BTW, as far as understanding track rules. I was at a Lemons Race several years ago and standing next to a race official when a call came over race control for a racer that was black flagged. The flag station who pointed the flag at the car first described the incident. "Okay, I have a car that just left the track and is now stopped. Driver has exited the car and walking towards me. " Flagger then talks to the driver in the background of the radio. "NO! , you don't report to me , go into the pits and report to the BLACK FLAG STATION!" Imagine how dangerous that could have been . Lack of experience or knowledge is very dangerous on a race track.

You're right that this should be practiced in DE, and I'm really happy to mostly run with an organization that does flag drills. Could I have seen the flag sooner, in this particular instance? Yes, I could have. I'm partially responsible for sure. But the situation is this:
- I enter keyhole knowing there's a fast viper that'll be behind me quickly.
- I exit keyhole, see clear track, proceed to give him point by as I know he's going to blow by me after about a second (so he can see the point by)
- As my arm is out the window, I see the yellow.
- Maybe a second goes by and he's passed me with speed delta of ~40mph

So I could have seen the flag sooner and not give him the point by? Maybe, assuming that the second that I had between seeing clear track the first time and giving him point by was sufficient. Could I have waved him as my arm was still out the window to alert him to the flag? Yes, absolutely. Could he have seen the flag and slowed down enough to not pass me (remember the hp differential is like 400-500hp), maybe. He could have made a decision then that it was safer to pass than to slam on the brakes and unsettle the car in the kink. So both of us could potentially have done something to avoid the situation, but it still happened and it may have been unavoidable as to not create a dangerous situation for both of us. I can't say whether the other guy saw the flag and made a decision that it was safer to pass given his speed, or just not have seen the flag. With the chief instructor next to me on the check out ride he did not think that my contribution to the issue was sufficient to not check me off (and we did talk about what I could have been done differently, including waving, as you had suggested).

This weekend in a big event at Lime Rock. I was qualifying and a black flag comes out at all stations. After I pass 3 stations with black flags this person ( trying to be nice) decides hes going to fly up the uphill and pass me before west bend under black flag all . (by the way I probably lapped him)Hmmm well for a second I went to shut down the pass then I realized this "person" (being nice again) wasn't slowing down.
When we line up in the pits I see he left good deal of space between him and the car in front so I pull out and slide in front of him. His hands are flying in a gesture like what the hell am I doing . We were even with chief steward so I get his attention and ask him to please inform the other driver what a black flag means .
He comes back to me and tells me the driver had No idea you cant pass under a black flag. WTF we are suppose to all be racers flags are 101?????? I tell him if he didn't know that maybe its a good idea to go back to him and tell him what a red flag means.

I am sorry but how do give race a license to people that don't even know the flags? this wasn't his first race either
I say all this not to make fun of the guy he might be a great guy . Its more about organizations have to do a better job educating and not promoting drivers or signing off on driver just for the sake of doing it.

It can be difficult to memorize 6-8 flags.

Those bright colors are confusing to some.

Seriously, white flag full stop is someone that wasnt, and apparently hasnt been paying attention in class.

Perhaps at drivers meetings we should have a flags poster up all the time beside the typical track map. Might be a nice subtle way to let everyone refresh every time.

back in a past life, while going through pilot training in the air force we used to have something called "stand up" every morning. they called on students randomly with an emergency of the day. if you got called and didn't call out the proper emergency procedures, you sat that day and didn't fly. plus you got to look like a numpty in front of your buds. perhaps randomly calling on guys during the meeting to give the meaning of whichever flag the head of the meeting shows? if you miss it, you sit til lunch. give a little study time. also puts a little "pressure" on the person called on, if you can't remember with that pressure, you won't remember on the track.

There are lots of great ideas that are not difficult to implement...but nothing will happen until HPDE organizers recognize there's an issue and start doing things to address it. By the sound of it, it would not appear there's awareness of the issue.

Maybe instructors moving students up groups too quickly? Blue group students are the worst. Tunnel vision, no awareness, exceeding the limits of the car without being aware or capable of controlling it when they step over the line. Keep them back in C/Yellow, give them honest feedback and check their ego. What's scary is these guys are a couple events from asking to move up to Advance - so now they will be sharing a track with you for groups that split high/low HP.

To OP's - MOR has student reviews on clubregistration which should have been filled out. Was there any feedback on the student you received before going out with him? PCA should really get a standardized method of doing this. Always fun getting in the car with a blue student, no background info, first session of the day and you can pretty much smell the adrenaline when they get in the hot pit.

At FSR they use ascending order: Green, Blue, White (solo-int), Black (adv.), Red (Inst). FSR uses MotorsportReg for registration and SLIP for student reviews, so the instructor probably didn't know the student's "reviewed" background.

I like this.., as long as I'm not called :D

While I agree with this in principle, if you sit me for the morning because I miss a question in the drivers' meeting, I'd better see 1/4 of my registration fees come back to my credit card...

Should a college give you or your parents back part of your tuition if you scored low on an exam? Both are educational events, both are voluntary and most of us have had fun at both.

That is a stretch, but I'll bite. If I don't know the answer to a one-question exam and the school suspends me for a month before letting me back in class, then yes - I would expect money back.

Nonsense. Flag awareness is literally life and death.

+1

+2!

I agree that it's life and death. If someone misses a flag on-track or takes the wrong action when thrown, of course sit them down for a session or two. But if they've only gotten a question wrong, tell them the answer, go over the flags with them again. Hell, even make them sit down and study until they can come back with the right answer and action for all the flags, however long that takes. But don't mandate that they sit out the morning as some sort of childish punishment unless you're also willing to give them part of their fees back. Make a stupid mistake on-track? Yup. Have a seat for a few hours and think about how you directly put people in danger. Miss a question? Learn the answer, commit to doing the right thing, go out there, and drive.

All this being said, it's about event expectations. If there's some sort of stipulation in the track pack or registration process that says, "By paying these fees, you agree that we can sit you down for [reasons] with no money back," then all bets are off.

No worries, skip the drivers meeting. :icon107:

Having operated and attended non-competitive, DE and competitive track events for decades, a majority of them (at least the smart ones) have this wording INCLUDED as an acknowledgement of these conditions by the entrant.

The organizer can excuse an entrant for part or all of the event at their discretion, without recourse. And that's a good thing, sometimes...

the idea in this process is it puts additional focus/urgency to knowing whatever it is you are getting quizzed on. you don't want to look the fool, and you don't want to have to sit out. my guess, performance on flag quizzes improves quickly.

"Make a stupid mistake on-track? Yup. Have a seat for a few hours and think about how you directly put people in danger. Miss a question?"

If you miss the question in the meeting, you aren't going to do it right on the track.....so yeah, missing the question equates to a stupid mistake on track...hence this whole thread. just proposing that part of the reason it goes on is it isn't handled with the proper gravity.

How many tracks have a critter flag like Road America?

This is part of the materials for the Belle Isle GP this weekend and highlights some of the differences in flag protocol.

I like the idea but instead of sitting them down for a session, I wold try to teach them. Call their instructor over and have a conversation about it. If they are a solo student then I would try to put an instructor in their car for a while. If they balk at that, I wold show them the gate.

And then there’s this...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Trac...3934?sfns=xmwa

I was at an HPDE at Barber this weekend. The track marshal gave the flag talk. In five minutes, best this flag means "x" and you react "y", I have heard. Clear and concise. Yes, more details could be added, but for someone experienced a great reminder and for the beginner, not an overwhelming amount of info.

I have been following this thread and paid close attention to how the flags would be presented at this event. Wanted to give a shout out to Barber for their presentation.

This probably matters more than it seems - nobody likes a driver's meeting that goes on and on and on....

-Mike