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07-02-2019, 09:04 PM
#166
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Paul,
I think your spot on. Mr. expert has certainly not raced a car suffering overheating and having to control engine temps. I recall running a support race for Rolex at NJMP where my air-cooled car was heat soaked. The cabin temps were around 140 degs and the ambient temp outside was 115. It required a lot rolling into the corners and big lifts, short shifts to manage a 40min race . Can't imagine doing that in an F1 car. 2500ft elevation and that high a temp is very odd.
I think your spot on. Mr. expert has certainly not raced a car suffering overheating and having to control engine temps. I recall running a support race for Rolex at NJMP where my air-cooled car was heat soaked. The cabin temps were around 140 degs and the ambient temp outside was 115. It required a lot rolling into the corners and big lifts, short shifts to manage a 40min race . Can't imagine doing that in an F1 car. 2500ft elevation and that high a temp is very odd.
07-02-2019, 09:28 PM
#167
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink (sorry Luigi, I can't with this guy)... You're misinterpreting the concept. Mercedes has raced at several venues with hot temps, and they were going for their 5th straight win in a row at the Red Bull ring, but there was a perfect storm of the constant of the altitude, and the non constant variables of hot ambient temps and very low humidity. They opened up their car as much as they could (they believed) and lost DF, but it wasn't enough. There is an exponential formula that determines how much DF you lose BUT ALSO DRAG from opening up the body work. Yes, they needed to cool the car and thus lost their DF... they did not have enough. They did not have sufficient brake duct openings.. It's all a part of the package.
The Merc package will be optimized again for Silverstone and they will again be leagues ahead of every other car on grid. And for the record, I'm not a fan of Hamilton, but I'm not a hater either. I'm on record as saying he'll probably go down as one of the best F1 drivers of all time but when he doesn't have the best car on grid, he looks ordinary -- just like Vettel when he doesn't have the best car on grid. Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo IMO are drivers that have that extra something to flatter the car. We really don't know about Hamilton because he's always had the best or one the best cars on grid every year. What he does do is take advantage of the situation he's been given and extract results.
I'm going to leave this discussion now as it seems to have run it's course.
The Merc package will be optimized again for Silverstone and they will again be leagues ahead of every other car on grid. And for the record, I'm not a fan of Hamilton, but I'm not a hater either. I'm on record as saying he'll probably go down as one of the best F1 drivers of all time but when he doesn't have the best car on grid, he looks ordinary -- just like Vettel when he doesn't have the best car on grid. Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo IMO are drivers that have that extra something to flatter the car. We really don't know about Hamilton because he's always had the best or one the best cars on grid every year. What he does do is take advantage of the situation he's been given and extract results.
I'm going to leave this discussion now as it seems to have run it's course.
Paul,
I think your spot on. Mr. expert has certainly not raced a car suffering overheating and having to control engine temps. I recall running a support race for Rolex at NJMP where my air-cooled car was heat soaked. The cabin temps were around 140 degs and the ambient temp outside was 115. It required a lot rolling into the corners and big lifts, short shifts to manage a 40min race . Can't imagine doing that in an F1 car. 2500ft elevation and that high a temp is very odd.
I think your spot on. Mr. expert has certainly not raced a car suffering overheating and having to control engine temps. I recall running a support race for Rolex at NJMP where my air-cooled car was heat soaked. The cabin temps were around 140 degs and the ambient temp outside was 115. It required a lot rolling into the corners and big lifts, short shifts to manage a 40min race . Can't imagine doing that in an F1 car. 2500ft elevation and that high a temp is very odd.
I guess that makes me just an average driver when my car is struggling too. WTF man, again about Hamilton? Most drivers look ordinary nursing a wounded car but you don't seem to understand just how hard that is while still going fast. Both Mercedes had an issue They finished seconds apart and Vettel almost caught both of them. This isn't about Hamilton for anyone but you yet again you seem to be laser focused on him... Not a hater? I call BS. Sorry, just because you say it doesn't make it true.
Mercedes were not going slow because they lost downforce and increased drag period. The openings weren't large enough to have that level of impact. If anything they should have sacrificed more downforce and drag for more cooling but Toto "says" all they could have done was remove the bodywork at that point.
Bottom line is they were so busy turning down the motor and having to lift and coast 400 meters per lap downforce and drag wasn't an issue. Had they been able to manage engine temps with the same level of downforce and drag their car was making and use all their engine power with those little openings they would have been fine. Sorry, I don't buy into they lost downforce and had too much drag, but I do buy into a heat soaked motor that needed to be turned down and brakes outside of their limits needing to be cooled. In order to do that you would actually want a bit more drag if that drag was cooling the components adequately to use them properly...
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07-02-2019, 11:46 PM
#168
Because if you lead a smart enough horse to a salt water river they are smart enough not to drink the water...
Exactly... We had the same thing at WGI. Water Cooled Car but fuel pump went in race 1. Crew got it changed but it meant draining the cooling lines. We couldn't get it to burp before race 2 so had to keep shutting the car down at 250. They towed me to grid, we literally fired the car as the car in front of me rolled. Car was actually ok, 220-240 until a yellow, then it got an air pocket and heat soaked. We had the heat on full blast in the car, took it out of sports plus, short shifted and lifted and coasted the rest of the race. Lost every position I gained prior to the yellow in the last few laps. Lap times dropped by 3-4 seconds per lap and VMAX dropped by 8 mph. Once the parts are heat soaked cooling them is just survival management.
I guess that makes me just an average driver when my car is struggling too. WTF man, again about Hamilton? Most drivers look ordinary nursing a wounded car but you don't seem to understand just how hard that is while still going fast. Both Mercedes had an issue They finished seconds apart and Vettel almost caught both of them. This isn't about Hamilton for anyone but you yet again you seem to be laser focused on him... Not a hater? I call BS. Sorry, just because you say it doesn't make it true.
Mercedes were not going slow because they lost downforce and increased drag period. The openings weren't large enough to have that level of impact. If anything they should have sacrificed more downforce and drag for more cooling but Toto "says" all they could have done was remove the bodywork at that point.
Bottom line is they were so busy turning down the motor and having to lift and coast 400 meters per lap downforce and drag wasn't an issue. Had they been able to manage engine temps with the same level of downforce and drag their car was making and use all their engine power with those little openings they would have been fine. Sorry, I don't buy into they lost downforce and had too much drag, but I do buy into a heat soaked motor that needed to be turned down and brakes outside of their limits needing to be cooled. In order to do that you would actually want a bit more drag if that drag was cooling the components adequately to use them properly...
Exactly... We had the same thing at WGI. Water Cooled Car but fuel pump went in race 1. Crew got it changed but it meant draining the cooling lines. We couldn't get it to burp before race 2 so had to keep shutting the car down at 250. They towed me to grid, we literally fired the car as the car in front of me rolled. Car was actually ok, 220-240 until a yellow, then it got an air pocket and heat soaked. We had the heat on full blast in the car, took it out of sports plus, short shifted and lifted and coasted the rest of the race. Lost every position I gained prior to the yellow in the last few laps. Lap times dropped by 3-4 seconds per lap and VMAX dropped by 8 mph. Once the parts are heat soaked cooling them is just survival management.
I guess that makes me just an average driver when my car is struggling too. WTF man, again about Hamilton? Most drivers look ordinary nursing a wounded car but you don't seem to understand just how hard that is while still going fast. Both Mercedes had an issue They finished seconds apart and Vettel almost caught both of them. This isn't about Hamilton for anyone but you yet again you seem to be laser focused on him... Not a hater? I call BS. Sorry, just because you say it doesn't make it true.
Mercedes were not going slow because they lost downforce and increased drag period. The openings weren't large enough to have that level of impact. If anything they should have sacrificed more downforce and drag for more cooling but Toto "says" all they could have done was remove the bodywork at that point.
Bottom line is they were so busy turning down the motor and having to lift and coast 400 meters per lap downforce and drag wasn't an issue. Had they been able to manage engine temps with the same level of downforce and drag their car was making and use all their engine power with those little openings they would have been fine. Sorry, I don't buy into they lost downforce and had too much drag, but I do buy into a heat soaked motor that needed to be turned down and brakes outside of their limits needing to be cooled. In order to do that you would actually want a bit more drag if that drag was cooling the components adequately to use them properly...
07-03-2019, 08:36 AM
#169
Again, straight from Bottas and Wolff. Lack of downforce and increased drag were not there issues.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...stria/4486625/
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...Ektp36YsgoOlUI
So even Toto says if they controlled engine temps they could have won. Not if they had more power they were downforce and drag limited because of opening the car up for cooling... This is your narrative. The actual narrative is they needed to open up the car even more, sacrifice more downforce and increase drag for additional cooling but they miscalculated the impact of lift and coast according to Bottas.
Yes, you are right, Aero is part of the issue in that their bodywork is incredibly tight and aero dependent HOWEVER the issue in this case was they didn't sacrifice enough of it, not they sacrificed too much and gave up their aero advantage and downforce as you keep implying. It's a False Cause Argument.
Guess it's a good thing this horse turned away from your river with contaminated water... Are we done now or do you want to go on with the tit for tat swapping passive aggressive insults?
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...stria/4486625/
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...Ektp36YsgoOlUI
The W10s were running the maximum available cooling set-up in Austria, and yet were still forced to run with restricted power, while both drivers compromised their laptimes with extensive lift and coast running as they attempted to cool their power units.
"We knew that it was our Achilles heel, and we were carrying the problem since the beginning of the season," said Wolff.
"We tried to work on mitigating the performance loss, but at the end, it was really painful to watch, cruising and not being able to defend or attack."
"The next step would have been to remove all the bodywork. So that was not really an option, because the sponsors wouldn't have liked it!
"I think when you look at the positives we had the car pace, we were running the engine way turned down, lifting and coasting for up to 400 metres, that's almost having no throttle rolling downwards.
"And still able to pull in some decent lap times. I think we would have a chance to fight for the win, but we were limited by the cooling problems.
"We tried to work on mitigating the performance loss, but at the end, it was really painful to watch, cruising and not being able to defend or attack."
"The next step would have been to remove all the bodywork. So that was not really an option, because the sponsors wouldn't have liked it!
"I think when you look at the positives we had the car pace, we were running the engine way turned down, lifting and coasting for up to 400 metres, that's almost having no throttle rolling downwards.
"And still able to pull in some decent lap times. I think we would have a chance to fight for the win, but we were limited by the cooling problems.
Yes, you are right, Aero is part of the issue in that their bodywork is incredibly tight and aero dependent HOWEVER the issue in this case was they didn't sacrifice enough of it, not they sacrificed too much and gave up their aero advantage and downforce as you keep implying. It's a False Cause Argument.
Guess it's a good thing this horse turned away from your river with contaminated water... Are we done now or do you want to go on with the tit for tat swapping passive aggressive insults?
Last edited by Paul Solk; 07-03-2019 at 08:53 AM.
07-03-2019, 11:32 AM
#171
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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You know the debate is serious when people keep editing their posts!
07-03-2019, 11:37 AM
#172
Mercedes issues were not they removed too much aero causing downforce loss and drag inducing performance loss as Multi keeps saying. Not by any means.
Their Aero issues were they didn't open enough or say they couldn't so their engine and components heat soaked, overheated and a result they had to turn down the motor and lift and coast every lap... That was their performance drop off. Not increased drag and loss of downforce.
I also don't understand how this keeps coming back to Lewis or him being average or questioning his ability to perform. Because he finished 5th in one race with a bum car? Sure lets use that as a basis of judgement for his entire career, It gets old.
07-03-2019, 12:03 PM
#174
07-03-2019, 12:13 PM
#175
Rennlist Member
07-03-2019, 12:17 PM
#176
07-03-2019, 01:12 PM
#178
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One more before the 4th of July holiday - read the bold
29th June 2019, 18:47 | Written by Dieter Rencken and Keith Collantine
Mercedes are having a less competitive weekend at the Austrian Grand Prix due to the combination of high altitude and hot temperatures at the track, team principal Toto Wolff has revealed.
On the space of one week the team has gone from being 0.646 seconds faster than Ferrari in qualifying to 0.259s behind. Wolff said the combination of lower air pressure and warmer conditions at the track has compromised the performance of its W10.
“There are areas where I believe there is performance we could have optimised,” said Wolff after qualifying. “It is not a layout that suits our package at the moment and we always knew that. At the moment it’s a realistic reflection of where our car is.
“Our car was very dominant in Paul Ricard for example but we knew with the altitude here and the cooling and straight-line speed disadvantage that we have at the moment that this could be a very tough one. I think qualifying reflects the relative level of performance.”
The Red Bull Ring is situated 660 metres above sea level, making it the third-highest track on the F1 calendar behind Interlagos (764m) and the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez (2,200m). Wolff admitted Ferrari’s car works better in the combination of conditions the teams are experiencing this weekend.
“The way we packaged our car we are a bit marginal on cooling,” he said. “If you add those two factors of altitude and heat together that puts us in a compromised situation that we just have to open up more than we would like to. So they’ve done a better job in that area.”
Lewis Hamilton said on Thursday he expected the team would have to make compromises with its car to improve its cooling.
“There’s only 10 corners but the cars are always on the limit in terms of cooling. The cars are heavier this year so the brakes are even worse. And they end up having to open up the car to create cooling and that’s always worse for the car aerodynamically so you lose performance. Some teams have to do it less than others.”
Mercedes compromised by altitude and heat in Austria
2019 Austrian Grand Prix
Posted on29th June 2019, 18:47 | Written by Dieter Rencken and Keith Collantine
Mercedes are having a less competitive weekend at the Austrian Grand Prix due to the combination of high altitude and hot temperatures at the track, team principal Toto Wolff has revealed.
On the space of one week the team has gone from being 0.646 seconds faster than Ferrari in qualifying to 0.259s behind. Wolff said the combination of lower air pressure and warmer conditions at the track has compromised the performance of its W10.
“There are areas where I believe there is performance we could have optimised,” said Wolff after qualifying. “It is not a layout that suits our package at the moment and we always knew that. At the moment it’s a realistic reflection of where our car is.
“Our car was very dominant in Paul Ricard for example but we knew with the altitude here and the cooling and straight-line speed disadvantage that we have at the moment that this could be a very tough one. I think qualifying reflects the relative level of performance.”
The Red Bull Ring is situated 660 metres above sea level, making it the third-highest track on the F1 calendar behind Interlagos (764m) and the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez (2,200m). Wolff admitted Ferrari’s car works better in the combination of conditions the teams are experiencing this weekend.
“The way we packaged our car we are a bit marginal on cooling,” he said. “If you add those two factors of altitude and heat together that puts us in a compromised situation that we just have to open up more than we would like to. So they’ve done a better job in that area.”
Lewis Hamilton said on Thursday he expected the team would have to make compromises with its car to improve its cooling.
“There’s only 10 corners but the cars are always on the limit in terms of cooling. The cars are heavier this year so the brakes are even worse. And they end up having to open up the car to create cooling and that’s always worse for the car aerodynamically so you lose performance. Some teams have to do it less than others.”
07-03-2019, 01:32 PM
#179
One more before the 4th of July holiday - read the bold
29th June 2019, 18:47 | Written by Dieter Rencken and Keith Collantine
Mercedes are having a less competitive weekend at the Austrian Grand Prix due to the combination of high altitude and hot temperatures at the track, team principal Toto Wolff has revealed.
On the space of one week the team has gone from being 0.646 seconds faster than Ferrari in qualifying to 0.259s behind. Wolff said the combination of lower air pressure and warmer conditions at the track has compromised the performance of its W10.
“There are areas where I believe there is performance we could have optimised,” said Wolff after qualifying. “It is not a layout that suits our package at the moment and we always knew that. At the moment it’s a realistic reflection of where our car is.
“Our car was very dominant in Paul Ricard for example but we knew with the altitude here and the cooling and straight-line speed disadvantage that we have at the moment that this could be a very tough one. I think qualifying reflects the relative level of performance.”
The Red Bull Ring is situated 660 metres above sea level, making it the third-highest track on the F1 calendar behind Interlagos (764m) and the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez (2,200m). Wolff admitted Ferrari’s car works better in the combination of conditions the teams are experiencing this weekend.
“The way we packaged our car we are a bit marginal on cooling,” he said. “If you add those two factors of altitude and heat together that puts us in a compromised situation that we just have to open up more than we would like to. So they’ve done a better job in that area.”
Lewis Hamilton said on Thursday he expected the team would have to make compromises with its car to improve its cooling.
“There’s only 10 corners but the cars are always on the limit in terms of cooling. The cars are heavier this year so the brakes are even worse. And they end up having to open up the car to create cooling and that’s always worse for the car aerodynamically so you lose performance. Some teams have to do it less than others.”
Mercedes compromised by altitude and heat in Austria
2019 Austrian Grand Prix
Posted on29th June 2019, 18:47 | Written by Dieter Rencken and Keith Collantine
Mercedes are having a less competitive weekend at the Austrian Grand Prix due to the combination of high altitude and hot temperatures at the track, team principal Toto Wolff has revealed.
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On the space of one week the team has gone from being 0.646 seconds faster than Ferrari in qualifying to 0.259s behind. Wolff said the combination of lower air pressure and warmer conditions at the track has compromised the performance of its W10.
“There are areas where I believe there is performance we could have optimised,” said Wolff after qualifying. “It is not a layout that suits our package at the moment and we always knew that. At the moment it’s a realistic reflection of where our car is.
“Our car was very dominant in Paul Ricard for example but we knew with the altitude here and the cooling and straight-line speed disadvantage that we have at the moment that this could be a very tough one. I think qualifying reflects the relative level of performance.”
The Red Bull Ring is situated 660 metres above sea level, making it the third-highest track on the F1 calendar behind Interlagos (764m) and the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez (2,200m). Wolff admitted Ferrari’s car works better in the combination of conditions the teams are experiencing this weekend.
“The way we packaged our car we are a bit marginal on cooling,” he said. “If you add those two factors of altitude and heat together that puts us in a compromised situation that we just have to open up more than we would like to. So they’ve done a better job in that area.”
Lewis Hamilton said on Thursday he expected the team would have to make compromises with its car to improve its cooling.
“There’s only 10 corners but the cars are always on the limit in terms of cooling. The cars are heavier this year so the brakes are even worse. And they end up having to open up the car to create cooling and that’s always worse for the car aerodynamically so you lose performance. Some teams have to do it less than others.”
We are close here Multi, I've acknowledged what you are talking about with in terms of aero impacting performance, you've stopped the insults, we're just missing on which part of the aero was Mercedes problem... Had "Loss of Aero or downforce or drag" been the issue they would have said it. What they have said consistently and Bottas acknowledged was they calculated all of this, including how much aero to sacrifice and got it wrong. They also didn't correctly factor how much lift and coast would cost them. They needed more bodywork off the car, even if it meant sacrificing more aero so they could cool their brakes and use their powerplant... You are 100% correct it is a balance and everything has impact, I am saying they got it wrong on the opposite side of the equation to you.
We almost good now?
Last edited by Paul Solk; 07-03-2019 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Screw with LuigiVampa
07-03-2019, 01:37 PM
#180
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
If Mercedes' efforts to increase cooling had been successful, it very well be the case that the resulting aero hit they took for doing so would not have prevented them from winning the race.
The PRIMARY reported cause of Merc's pace was their being forced to turn down the engine and to lift and coast.
The aero hit they took from adding cooling didn't help but alone would likely not have kept them from being competitive.
The PRIMARY reported cause of Merc's pace was their being forced to turn down the engine and to lift and coast.
The aero hit they took from adding cooling didn't help but alone would likely not have kept them from being competitive.
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