What's up with Chin?
 

So this really happened. A friend of mine is a two time Runoff's champion, Super Tour national points winner in SCCA Spec Racer Class last year- the most popular SCCA class along with Spec Miata. He finds a Chin track day to warmup for this year's runoff's at VIR since he couldn't make the Super Tour race there. They ask for a resume of his driving- he doesn't like to brag, so he does a quick one. They ask for more info, he fills his resume out so more. They say come on down, you can run your Spec Racer in Novice Solo. WTH?? I could not imagine a more qualified driver short of Pro drivers. Would they put Randy Pobst in a Novice class? When he told me, I told him to bag it, he would not get a lap in without traffic and risk damaging his car- supposedly they already have 50 cars in this group.

Anyone here from Chin or knows how they make group determinations? Seems incredible that a National Champion must run Novice.

Probably a miscommunication, I've never seen an experienced driver like that placed in novice solo at a Chin event. An experienced driver like that would normally be placed in Blue and be scheduled for a Red checkout, or placed directly in Red. Part of the evaluation is to make sure the driver understands and has experience with the DE format as far as passing, etc. If someone skipped DE and went straight into racing, it could make sense to start in Blue (not novice solo) for at least a few sessions before moving to Red.

Which event? Pretty simple to get reclassed with Chin with an email to whoever the event manager is. Not the time to undersell your credentials.

No, it doesn’t make sense- are you saying Lewis Hamilton needs a checkout or must run Blue because he hasn’t run a DE trackday? Yes he has never run a trackday, he’s been racing for 30 years. But really we are talking Novice solo!

When you put on your resume SCCA National Champion twice - once in the most pure spec class almost all driver skill, and recently in 2016 you don’t need to say much more. But supposedly this was the event manager he was emailing. It was one in June, but he’s not going now.

I had something similar happen to me when I went to Road Atlanta for the first time. I had run Advanced Solo at my Texas tracks with them but they put me in Novice Solo. I had a couple of Chin Instructors vouch for me, but they still placed me in novice solo. Keep in mind at this point, I have 5 track records with NASA in 3 states. But I hadn't updated my resume. I was able to finally convince them after the all yellow session to bump me up a group but they said no shenanigans.

I run with them again at Mid Ohio and they have me in intermediate solo, I supposed since I haven't driven that track before.

They told me they'd rather see me learn the track from my front window then looking in my rear mirror. Makes sense.

He has run there before in a pro series but a long time ago, maybe that is the convoluted logic. Traveling across the country for a checkout ride just doesn’t make sense.

Chin's policy is pretty much everyone gets a check out ride and usually it's the first opportunity of the day. It's one of the reasons people like running with them, people can't self select although I think that someone of your friend's caliber should have been given some significant leeway.

Novice solo would not be a good fit for him unless he's driving something that runs on 4 D batteries. And maybe not then. Sorry to hear he has decided to cancel, I think if he did attend he would find it would have worked itself out very quickly.

I once did a checkout for novice solo for a guy at VIR at a Chin event. He was an older guy who had done lots of kart racing at VIR, and wanted to track his street car. When we got on track it was clear that he didn't understand how DEs work. I opined that the driver should have an instructor work with him in the novice group; the driver said ok, and later thanked me sincerely for pairing him with an instructor.

It's usually better for all concerned to start someone in a conservative placement and move them up if/when they're ready.

At my first Chin event, I was already an instructor with another organization, was placed in Blue, and had to do a checkout to move to Red.

^^This^^

Exactly right. And I’ll add that unless you’ve been chief, cook, and bottle washer for a DE program you can hardly imagine the misrepresentations that you get from some people when they present themselves. You have to err on the side of caution with unknown drivers.

Well I have no experience with Chin, but based on other DE organizations I figured chances were slim to ‘figure it out’ the day of. Usually people won’t back down from their prior decisions. Too risky to hope this works out after a 3000 mile tow.

Well I’m not going to convince you this is ridiculous... seriously he is not old- 45, and doesn’t need an instructor. He’s the nicest guy and not aggressive, would follow any rules given. A DE isn’t a difficult event for someone who has thousands of hours racing. And you were placed in blue, not novice solo in a similar circumstance.

Unknown ? You can see his national championship races on the SCCA website.

Does Randy Pobst need a checkout ride? It’s seriously the same thing- but he is fine with that, has no ego it’s just that he is starting in Novice solo- chances to run in the expert group that same day are not good at most DE organizations, but I don’t know Chin.

^^^ Exactly my thoughts as well ^^^

Sometimes they can be a bit cautious, but they have no interest in holding somebody back. A few minutes of observation would have made his skills obvious and the problem would be solved.

-Mike

I told him I could probably network here and get it resolved ahead of time, but his tow plans changed for the June Sprints so the risk wasn’t worth it. I just posted here to understand the reasoning. I guess I understand a little better but still a little dumbfounded on the choice to put him in Novice Solo.

I did my first chin day in 2016 prior to a GT4 Clubsport race.
I ran in blue group until the moved me up after lunch.

Best thing would be to get there and then get moved up.

Maybe chin knows Scca hot shoes are looking for vir practice and don’t want us. I would be looking for alternatives too.

Sorry, but comparing his credentials to Randy Pobst is not accurate. In fact, you'll find Randy at lots of Chin events. Chin is pretty firm on certain tracks Barber, Road Atlanta, VIR etc) if you haven't been there ( or it's been a long time) . They get lots of guys with long resumes who are either uncontrollable, not as good as they claim, or have trouble learning/adjusting to a new track (also counts for relearning) Any can be a Hazzard. If he had never done a DE before it would have been good for him to do that likely one session to learn the difference between race practice and DE. It would have been handled by lunch. The only ones that seem to get a pass to Red are REAL pro teams. Drivers with recent experience at said track with other organizations may get a bump to check ride in blue.

Quite the opposite. Not uncommon to see hot shoes at Chin events at the major tracks like VIR, WG, Mid Ohio, COTA, etc. The format and standards of Chin events tend to work better for hot shoes than PCA, BMW, etc.

As has been said, if this driver was everything Montoya thinks he is, he would have been moved up to Blue or more likely Red the first day. Chin has separate checkout instructors so that checkouts can be and are done promptly.

well he’s unknown to me and obviously to Chin. Organizers don’t have time to go check YouTube, and YouTube videos rarely show the bad news. Only the good. When I was running the TWS program, I would ask for references and check with other CDI’s in the area before deciding where to place someone. As I mentioned before you would be amazed at the crap you hear.

One guy wanted to instruct and told me he instructed for another group. The other group CDI laughed and told me they let him ride with his buddies but he wasn’t close to being an instructor. This same guy came and drove, and during the weekend said he wanted to race with WRL. He asked if he had to attach a HANS to his helmet to race or if he could just wear it around his neck.

Never run with Chin, but how do they perform these check out rides in race cars with no passenger seats?

Hahaha! Ummm, no...

Chin groups at VIR are frequently populated with PCA Club Racing, IMSA GT3, GT4 and TCR teams, SRO Blancpain teams, BMWCCA CR, NASA and SCCA teams. Have been for awhile.

They do a good job of charging all the participants with the shared responsibility for knowing the difference between racing and track day behavior. As a result, different drivers with different objectives coexist well.

I periodically coach there because the culture is good, the groups are faster than almost all other DE and track day groups in general and Happy Hour lets us put together all the stuff we’ve been working on on OUR schedule at the end of the day(s).

A lot of newbie people question the check-out ride requirement, I’ve even tried to pull strings (without success) to “save” an experienced client “time in the lower group.” 99% of the time, the checkout ride goes off early, quickly and seamlessly, and we’re onto our program. No big deal and I’ve come to accept it.

I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the system they use. It’s almost necessary and likely prudent, these days. They think so, and because I want to be part of their events, I support them in this.

Buck up!

Lead follow.

We had someone come out to our event at WGI as a ‘race car driver’, had a long resume and brought a professional driving coach. The person was started out in Red due to the impressive resume... then got moved down to Black... then down to White with the coach required to be in the car instructing (White is normally solo).

The point is, it’s hard to evaluate someone with a resume. While I agree that SCCA posted championships are easy to validate I still understand and agree with the checkout ride philosophy.

There had to be miscommunication, ie placement in novice. I just registered for my first Chin event, scheduled next month. I provided them my experience including racing and 150-200 days at that track. They placed me in intermediate solo with a scheduled checkout ride first thing with placement into advanced if all goes well. It is their process even if you have pro experience. I appreciate it as I would prefer to shelve my ego for the safety of running in the advanced group. We have all seen the driver(s) in advanced that shouldn’t be there.

I have a point that no one else has made here. You can be a very good SRF driver and be a huge problem at a DE. If you were in chin Blue or Red at COTA (and I assume VIR is similar) you would be a huge hazard with differences in closing speeds, and I am sure there are nice polite SRF drivers out there, but my experience with them at DE's is that they like to race everyone and each other causing parades and they "cant" give point bys because they are wearing tethers. Maybe they have been burned by this kind of thing before.

I recently won TT nationals and went to run Cresson with TDE in December. Since I hadn't run with them in over a year they made me start in the top run group, but with an instructor. Shrug.

LOL what a bunch of pompous A holes. You're more than qualified to instruct for that group much less run intermediate.

As Peter says, Chin runs an excellent program. If you don't like their approach or process, don't drive with them. Simple.

i believe the policy is you start from ground zero if you have never been at that track with them regardless......

and looked to get regrouped after your instructor signs you off

Yes, he was perfectly OK with a check out ride and was planning on going, but when he told us he was in Novice Solo we all discouraged him. Again we don't know Chin, but it's pretty much 100% guaranteed at all the track day organizers in the West Coast that you will not move up more than one, maybe two groups by the end of the day. The plan was I was going to network here to straighten out his start group, but his towing plans changed and he cancelled.

Well, I know what you mean- there are a lot of track bullies that race in SRF, but this guy is not one of them. Understandably it's hard to evaluate a racers demeanor on the track as you can't get that from a resume or from talking to them. The track personality (devil or saint) only comes out on the track. Unfortunately this guy is all saint. Probably through networking I could have gotten a connection to Chin with someone who knows him and we could have fixed the starting position. Again I appreciate the perspective given by everyone to better understand the logic, it makes sense in a broader way- it's just too bad that it has to be that way for the few bad eggs that boast, lie or brag about their experience.

YES!

I like that Chin runs a tight ship. People love to brag / lie about their experience. Think of that recent goon who bad mouthed AER & Chin Instructors.

Again, Chin is different. They're set up to do checkouts promptly.

Also, keep in mind that novice solo isn't the same as instructed novice. There's some amount of trust involved in placing a driver in any solo group if he's new to a track or hasn't been to a track in a long time.

Pace is also a consideration in run group placement. At a track like VIR, the average pace of Chin Red is quite fast, and even Blue is pretty fast.

I dunno, I drove a SRF for the very first time at Chin at COTA in Red and it was not a problem at all. And, most assuredly, one can give point-bys while wearing the tethers. The only problem I see with an SRF is the attitude of the driver.

Keep in mind, with some of the big iron that shows up to a COTA event, speed differential is a given almost no matter what you bring with the NASCAR Sprint Cup, F1, and Indycars that sometimes show up.

-Mike

Yes he is, and no they are not assholes. Good people who have a different outlook than you do. When you become THE person with the overriding responsibility for the safety of all the participants, the view changes. Don’t rush to judgement.

+1

Hahaha. I've very recently started to be a *tiny* bit involved on this side of the fence with one of the groups I run with and holy **** I wish I had a dollar for every "I'm an instructor" or "I'm super duper advanced" email that gets sent. 991 Cup Car here I come!

And generally all "tiny bit involved" needs to be is you know the person running the event to see this stuff. These stories of "resume enhancement" are all over the place.

-Mike

I am good with the way they handled it and never want to be "that guy". At Road Atlanta, once I figured out track, I started to run into some traffic in intermediate solo but i got a ton of clean laps in happy hour.

I also like how they do the full course yellow for first 30 minutes. Makes it nice to learn a new track without so much pressure.

Good point, I had forgotten that. Everybody has a chance to scope the place out at a sedate pace right at the start.

-Mike

You don’t have to be a hard ass, this comment is not really adding to the conversation, is it? I understand a little better the perspective of track day organizers now, but your take it or leave it attitude is exactly what I warned him could happen to him when he arrived for his check out ride and tried to get moved up. See, I guess you did add to the conversation- LOL.

Yes, that also might be behind the logic- if the organizers only experience with SRF is our previous gen cars, then maybe he’s got a wrong idea of the speed of SRF3. Our top times are just 2 seconds off what Randy Pobst does at Laguna or Big Willow in the current gen GT3. Yes there is speed difference in cornering (much faster) versus straights, but we are often thrown into practice with Trans Am and P1 cars so we are used to it.

And again, he’s a Saint on track, too bad again the rules have look out for the track bullies and track devils, but I get it. Thanks for all the helpful comments everyone.

A couple of years ago, I had an unknown student show up with a new, very fast BMW. I put one of our instructors, who I though well of, but who I didn't know as well as I should have in the car with him to check him out. I should have chosen a different instructor quite honestly, as the guy I chose was on the aggressive side of drivers himself. The student put his car head-on into a corner station on lap two of his check ride. Broke both of the instructor's legs, and the guys was in a wheel chair for a fair amount of time. My decisions may have contributed to the situation.

My point is that before you pass judgement on Chin (or any other very good organization like them), think about this story, and put on their hat for a minute.

Montoya, I am not being a hardass. Just a realist. Like it or not, this is how Chin rolls. Bitching about it here isn't productive, and doesn't help your friend. He should simply go, do Novice Solo for a session with a lead follow check out, and allow the process to work.

The SRF I referred to was a Gen 2, the Gen 3 is a lot faster, but doesn't really matter in this context. Quite frankly, your comment about the SRF Gen 3 being "faster" would raise suspicions with me as the car really doesn't factor in which run group is correct. Assuming fast car means fast car and driver is a rookie mistake.

Recall also that Chin allows passing anywhere in the top run groups. In the top run group, they require prompt point-bys. They are quick to demote someone who can't abide by this. The car speed differential is entirely mute in their organization - red run group drivers are expected to have the skills to deal with it. With a skilled driver, the check ride is going to be short, as if a driver has a skilled resume that is accurate, it's going to be obvious after 1-2 hot laps.

The rules protect him as well as I'm sure he doesn't want some chuckle-head running out there with him who has boosted his resume. As been stated before, Chin is very good at sorting the proper run group for people new to them early Saturday morning. Add in the double-yellow first session and it makes it easy for an experienced, but new to the track person to get the flow of the place.

I can personally attest Chin has instructors who are there just for check rides as I've done it and didn't have a regular assigned student.

I like how Chin strives to treat everybody as an adult as most will rise to the occasion and I like the freedom of not being nanny'ed to death.

-Mike

There is nothing wrong with eating some humble pie and starting in a lower run group to establish yourself with a new organization like Chin. Just because you are a racer doesn't make you a good DE participant. Frankly, I'd be hesitant of any DE organizers that do not operate that way.

It should be noted that Chin is just as particular about picking their instructors. They won't accept a new instructor without some sort of verified national credential. At least, that was the rule when I was a new instructor.

+1000. Chin Events are FAR, FAR more valuable than any PCA (waste of time) or Club DE. Chin has always been very accommodating - they are the people worth getting to know.

If a driver wonders why they are being placed in specific run group all they need to do is ask the event manager in charge of the event, we are all easy to get ahold of since there are only 5 of us. The only correspondence we had with Montoya's friend was his first general inquiry on whether or not we allow SRF's to participate, which of course Chin does. In a subsequent email we cleared him to be 'Solo' as in Non-Instructed based on his years of experience, there was no mention in that email of which specific run group he would be in at VIR and if the driver assumed he would be in the Novice group that was on their own speculation.

I don't think you're reading my posts completely, I said he was fine with a checkout ride. Also said that not knowing Chin, we couldn't be confident that would slot him in the right group. I also said I'm sure there are people like yourself that might help him get slotted in a more appropriate group. In any event, I'm not bitching and I also said to the rest of you who think I was, that I'm trying to understand and do now have a better perspective.

It's another 3-sided story!

Hi Jack

OK, fair enough I didn't see any of the correspondence and he is extremely modest so it doesn't surprise me you didn't get the full picture. He did specifically say Novice Solo, so not sure how he would make that up, but anyways it does sound like things would have worked out fairly quickly.

Again, for the third time, we have no experience with Chin. Based on experience with other groups we just assumed if you start Novice Solo, there is no way in hell you are moving up to an expert group the same day. Others here have made clear that's not the case with Chin, but we had no reference. Thanks again for reaching out.

I've moved people from novice instructed to advanced in one day! Why, the person does not list any experience on clubreg, shows up, and does not say anything until they get in the car with the instructor. Once we hash out the specifics, it's just a matter of a check ride. YMMV.

Always happy to help, and hope you and your friend are able to join us at the track in the future.

Mark here, COO of Chin Track Days. 'Preciate the numerous commenters here that validate our typical driver screening steps. My colleague Jack, posting above, has pointed out that the driver in question was not ever assigned to a run group, nor was he told that he would be classified as 'novice/solo'. He did receive a standard response email, notifying him that he was eligible to register as a solo driver, with no novice restriction. However, no registration was ever received. The driver in question indicated that he had no prior experience at VIR, it should be noted . Chin Track Days is fortunate to be in our 20th year of track events, and we've had over 80,000 entries since 1999. That has led us to adopt some routine screening steps and driver classification protocols. We're well aware that there is no "one-size-fits-all" model when it comes to run-group assignments. We have a full-time event management team who are all experienced at evaluating drivers, and making educated guestimates about which run group may be suitable. Had the driver in question signed-up to participate at VIR, what might have actually happened is likely very different than what was assumed. Side note, my buddy Randy Pobst tests with us routinely, since Chin is the #1 provider of track events at Road Atlanta, Randy's home. Usually, when he's running his 'Happy Moose' Volvo lemons car, it's his choice to drive in our 'novice/solo' group . :) . Chin Track Days makes this recommendation: if a driver has a question about run-group classification, that should be taken directly to our easily accessible staff. We usually do not make run group assignments based on recommendations from internet forums. Email or phone us:
http://chintrackdays.com/contact-us.aspx
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...76cddd0622.png

Really appreciate the background information!! The power of Rennlist is amazing- to reiterate I told my friend I was confident that since it was Chin and they had a good reputation I was confident that networking here would get it sorted out. Sure enough we have two people from Chin in this thread giving us a full explanation and further background info on the registration. Thanks again for reaching out, it's been very informative and will be stored in my memory banks if and when I ever go to a Chin event back east- I have a good understanding of what to expect and how it works.

This thread makes me want to run with Chin even more. It's on my bucket list to do. I like the extra vetting and the fact that people are placed in a more thorough and consistent basis.

+1

It makes for a consistently positive experience, I have found

I’ll just add that East Coast tracks are a little different.

I have pole time data from Gen3 cars at VIR and data for Randy in the newest street GT3RS. The differential here is between eight and twelve seconds per lap... in Randy’s favor. The cornering speeds are different but not substantially.

Chin Red group at VIR typically starts at Gen3 pole time and can be up to twenty seconds a lap
faster, with LMP3 and TA cars running here.

No question a well driven Gen3 is not a slow car, but you cited times, so fair game! ;)

Just another data point.

I have run in a few of Chin events. Hey Jim. Hey Jack.

Chin is one of the best track day formats hands down. Almost too much track time, if that's a "thing". (I know, blasphemy).

My first Chin event was at NJMP or maybe WGI, and I was somewhat "vetted" when I got there.

I never did get a checkout ride, but they based putting me in a solo run group based on my track experience and my number of days at that particular track.

I was def put in the right run group.

Chin is awesome. More expensive than a DE, but less people on track and much more track time.

Chin is a great group to run with.

What's even better is that Jack is usually on track with the rental car he gets for the event. I think it's Jack.

Chin is good people and great times for sure...

'Preciate the kind comments!
We will neither confirm nor deny that Chin staff does/does not make laps in airport rental cars... :thumbsup: (a reminder of the difference between "drive fast" and "buy fast")

Agreed that Chin is awesome - IMO, the BEST!

Chin registration cost may be higher than PCA, BMW, etc., but when you consider the cost per hour of seat time (2 Chin days equals about 4 PCA or BMW days), much less time sitting around, and the savings resulting from less days away from home/work and less hotel cost, I think Chin is actually a better value than other organizations.

^^^THIS^^^

It is comical what people will put in their resume. Trust but verify is a good stance. The consequences of putting someone unknown (and therefor unknown safe) in a fast run group with no actual eyes on them is not a safe policy for a DE club. Chin puts me in their intermediate run group at new tracks, and I instruct for them at 3 different tracks. It's a simple matter of asking for a check ride. I don't understand why people think it's the club's burden to know who they are. If you are a fast, courteous, and safe driver, prove it on the track. Trust me, Chin wants you to have a good time and come back for more crack.

+1 for Chin Track Days and the wonderful program they run. I think the world of Mark and Maria, as well as Jack, Bill, Jim. I have yet to meet Austin. Guess this means I need to quit reading about the track and book a weekend!

I have always had very positive experiences with Chin - As a driver and as an instructor.

The term check ride used a lot. What exactly does that entail? Is the check ride group specific so you have to hit some minimum lap time for red group or is this a safety check or what?

They have a seasoned instructor either sit in the passenger seat or do a lead/follow to validate skill level.

Not only skill level, but awareness, courtesy, validation of stated experience, best execution of fundamental skills.

There is no “target time” at a track day event, the group can accommodate quite a variance, if EVERYONE is up to speed mentally, emotionally and above all, aware.

Mark - Just wanted to say that you guys are awesome. By far the best DE events, with the best drivers across all run groups. I've never seen a train in Chin, and I think your format develops the most capable drivers by far.

As a personal note, I was recently moved up to Black run group by NNJR PCA at Lime Rock. Registered for a Chin event at Mid-Ohio (first time at the track), and will be running in Green to start. I'm perfectly fine with that, and if my pace and confidence picks up at the track, I'm sure they'll move me up quickly.

Looking forward to the event, and scheduling as much Chin time as possible this year!

… and worth noting that there are detailed written guidelines for the checkout instructors to follow, with many things evaluated: flag meanings, awareness of flag locations and displayed flags on track, passing, pace, car control, attitude, ability to take coaching, etc.

You'll be lucky to make it out of Green with Chin.
Part of the signoff is to make sure you can keep pace with the other drivers in the run group you are looking to be in.
You cannot keep pace. You will not keep pace. You'll never keep pace. You suck.
How you got put into black with my home region (congrats on that by the way-nice achievement, and I'm glad you took my advice and got that checkout ride so we can run together again with NNJR) is beyond me. Did you pay off the CI that checked you out? Was he drunk? Did you slip a mickey into his coffee about a 1/2 hour before your checkout ride?
There's a Chin DE at Watkins coming up. I didn't register for it as I am at The Glen a bunch of days around that event,but we did that event a couple times including last season, and it was a flat out awesome 2 days. Worth every penny and every minute. Lemme know if you decide to do that one. Maybe I can shuffle the schedule around a bit. Lemme know.
Again, congrats on the move ito Black with NNJR. You still suck.

Never under estimate the power of compromising photos :evilgrin:

hehe....

FYI- Chin contacted my buddy last night- he sent me a note saying I must have friends in high places, LOL! (Yeah, I can post stuff on forums with the best of them...)

Anyways, all good and Chin has shown a lot of class here, thumbs up!

Yes, class. Nice work.

You DON'T necessarily need a screaming-fast car to run in the (for example) Red run group with Chin. A Mini will do just fine :D, BUT........
.........whether you have one or not, you DO need all that Peter mentions above, and, ideally not just for Chin but for ALL the groups you drive with.

The difference with Chin's Red group is that if a faster car is approaching you, you LET THEM BY.
Anywhere on the track.
Don't d*ck around, don't say "Oh, I'm not comfortable here, I'll let' em by on the next straight"....that's for the Blue or lower groups. Again, get them by you immediately.
Then they're by, and you both carry on. Until, in my case, they come around again :p Wash, rinse, repeat, as they say.

Works great.

And if you do it right, Jack B. won't have to "talk" with you ;)

Gary

Another positive vote for Chin. I ran with Chin for the first time at their Road Atlanta event in February last year. As required, I provided my driving history and indicated that it was my first time at RA. I was assigned to their Solo/Yellow group to start the event. After two sessions, I found that I was carrying quite a bit of pace and frequently on the bumper of cars in my assigned run group. I spoke to one of the onsite event managers and he scheduled a check-out ride to the Blue run group in the first afternoon run. I got moved up to the Blue/Intermediate Solo group after that. Simple, straight-forward process. My check out instructor wanted to asses my control of the car, driving line/positioning and most importantly, he told me, situational awareness on track. Great guy.

I must say, the Blue group at Chin is a very fast group, there were a few GT4 Clubsport MRs and GT3 Cups, prepped C7 Corvette's and two Lamborghini 488s whom I gave prompt point-byes to (LOL) and many other cars that let me by. The track sessions flowed perfectly. Chin's system works. As a result, I ran with Chin again at WGI and had a great time. Chin is an outfit/organization that I have full confidence running with. Classy organization and very professional.

Yup, ya'll are correct. On a few occasions I had to tell some drivers that group x wouldn't be a good group for them at this point, and why. I love being able to run and help Chin w/ their events.

+1

PCA club racing makes EVERYONE, including paid professional drivers, go through a rookie class. Why? Because there are differences in the way things are run that are important to know.

I'm bad with names but I had an IMSA driver in my rookie class and he didn't seemed offended by his inclusion at all.

I have never run with Chin but if they err on the side of caution, as opposed to letting a yahoo sneak through, that is a better way to run things. It can all be fixed with a checkout ride.

Yes, this happens a lot. Pat Long and many others have attended their required PCA rookie meeting with big smiles!

Sounds like Chin makes sure you actually KNOW how to drive fast with other drivers of different skills/speeds on class versus what people who have never left the safety of their home region think is fast/safe. Not trying to dog on my PCA region, except the guys in red/black running on Hoosiers in their GT3s are slow as molasses when you look at the "junk" brung by the NASA guys. I love hearing guys brag about how their 500hp car can do x time at a track (on hoosiers) when the NASA guys racing old/ratty cars in GTSx are going way way faster.

Happy to start at the bottom of Chin and improve my skills. I'm thinking about the WGI event in the summer...

Careful vetting and promotion of drivers is definitely important. When you're passing someone going up the esses at WG or VIR (it happens), you want to be confident that you can trust that they know what they're doing.

I just found this seriously entertaining post

"I told him to bag it, he would not get a lap in without traffic and risk damaging his car- supposedly they already have 50 cars in this group."

What race group has no traffic? From my experience there is far more car on car contact in amateur racing than in HPDE environment.... It seems someones ego is a little over-inflated.

Chin runs excellent events that are fast, fun and safe.

There’s a lot of folks running other organizations that could learn a lot about how to run a good DE program by attending a Chin event. Thats not to say everything they do fits everyone’s program. But they truly run excellent events.

Honestly it baffles me how many folks involved with running DE programs never step out of their box and see what others are doing. PCA is not the be all end all. Nor is BMWCCA, HOD, TDE, NASA, ... or Chin.

One thing that sets Chin apart is that they're the largest organizer of track events in the US. They've been around for 20 years, and looking at their 2019 calendar, they have 57 events at 15 tracks around the US, totaling 104 days on track. One small management team runs all of these events, and they do it as their full-time jobs, not as part-time volunteers. As a result, they have a depth of experience which IMO is unmatched by other DE organizations, and it shows in the quality of their events.

Excellent points. Chin is first class and really well run. Super organized. I try run with them as much often as possible.

im always amazed at the number of high dollar rides $$$$$$ that show up at chin events

On one hand Chin sounds great trying to protect its drivers. On the other hand Many who hold comp race licenses have paid their dues and if anything should understand safety and how to pass or get passed. I take a different approach on track regardless of who I run with. Chin vetting drivers on track works for them, if you like that sort of thing, but me personally...I don't trust anyone. I have been taken out by the best. I wonder if the stats for Chin driver crashes is statistically different from any of a dozen other HPDE trackday providers?

You've been "taken out" at an HPDE/track day? Ummmm, it's a track day, not a race (to paraphrase A.Iverson ;)) Yes, anything's possible on a racetrack, but IMO if you're getting taken out at something other than a real race something's radically wrong unless the circumstances are really extraordinary.

Gary

My post did not say that. I’m a licensed racer. My point is you never let your guard down once your visor goes down. No one is immune for a costly lapse in judgement. Hpde or racing physical laws of car on pavement is the same. Honestly racing with a group like Scca you got drivers with comp licenses, real tech inspections, high levels of car prep, medical care including acts on site, and even liability insurance as an additional insured. Hpde there is minimal to none of that. Cars have no cages yet speeds are triple digits in both. 200mph streetcars vs. 200mph full containment seat cage harness. Which is safer? Pick your poison. I race wheel to wheel because I’m a chicken.

Am I recalling correctly that you haven’t done any DEs?

FBB, you’ve been around a long time, but the world is a BIG place.

There are many, MANY more drivers who attend and participate in NON-competitive track day and high-performance driver education events than race wheel tl
wheel.

The culture IS markedly different.

In responsible, practiced and polished track days and DE’s, the overriding goal in decision making is “if in doubt, DON’T,” and for about 99% of the time, that works.

In wheel to wheel racing, especially at the level you are competing, it’s “I’m going to MAKE something happen.” Depending on the weekend, the weather and the red mist present in the forecast, it doesn’t work out between 12%-24% of the time (according to my informal measure over three decades in SCCA, NASA, PCA CR, BMWCCA CR and historic racing), from scraped paint and loosened bumper covers to retubs being required.

It’s a mistake to confuse the culture and record of the two.

And there is a BIG difference in culture between track day providers and DE organizers, just like there is in racing organizations.

When I was a participant in pro racing, the series head SAID in the drivers meeting, “I want you to spice up the show, let’s show them some fireworks!” ;) Sheesh...

Ive seen a few racers come in to HPDE events and either have no idea what the rules are, or don’t care. I’ve been punted on a test and tune day by a racer. Racers may have cages etc, but they are no better than HPDE drivers at seeing flags and avoiding contact.

When you get someone you don’t know with a racing resume signing up for a DE, you have to use the same sort of caution you use when dealing with others.

Oh, and I’m a racer.

This is why I started the thread. I didn't know anything about Chin, its operating philosophies or its procedures. I've seen extremes in track day organizations from complete anarchy to iron fist, my way or the highway. As stated previously we know better now and I personally would look forward to a day on track with Chin.

And, I think it's also clear that just because you have a comp license doesn't mean you are a good DE participant. There are many I race with that I wouldn't want in my run group LOL!!

Seen this as well when DE's and races are combined on the same days.

I remember a day last season (where it was a combined Race/DE weekend), when I followed a Spec Boxster around the track for 2 laps before he realized that he was out in an advanced DE Group and finally pointed me by.
Then he proceeded to point by the 8 or 9 cars that were stacked up behind me.
I guess he was testing out his car for the race and forgot he was running in a DE at the time.
He was apologetic afterwards when I went to talk to him. Very nice guy and very sorry that he forgot the point by's.
It happens....

I have not done HPDE in many years but I started there and made my way to racing like many others. If we want to be nit picky there is a difference between regimented HPDE ladder as in high performance drivers education and the wild west of HPDE high performance driving events. They are not the same. I don't know what Chin is.



Sure I agree. I wasn't trying to compare the crash data of racing to DE. I was curious if Chin has a lower incident rate than other DE organizations as a whole, if there are such stats. There is nothing like the "reported here" Chin level of driver vetting like it in the wild West where many organizations have self car tech self driver bio reporting and drivers just have at it. I have witnessed trackdays where a pickup truck with an open trailer was being used as a tow truck. Problems are solved often after problems occur.

Chin sounds like they want to prevent problems from happening. Does their system work better than others? Is the participant HPDE driver's insurance cheaper for a Chin event or Chin's insurance cost cheaper? That would be quite telling and perhaps even force other organizations to change, up their game, or dissappear. The bar is very low for track participation especially on off-days where a race track owner will collect your money any time he can. In fact I can rent two local tracks for myself with zero vetting and drive around in circles until I run out of gas. I can do that for 50% off if I share the cost with a buddy. We can get a few more friends and so on. Many DE organizations start out as a few guys wanting to go to the track and sign up others to get the costs down. Some don't progress much beyond that.

i can only comment with the PCA regions I’ve run with in TX, OK, and OH, along with the program I ran until TWS closed. All of these programs deal with unknown drivers in a similar way to Chin

^ DE organizations don't generally share their stats on crash rates, and many organizations don't even compile such stats.

Based on my experience paying attention to crash rates at events I've attended with Chin and other organizations, I would say that the crash rates at Chin events are lower (better) than average. I believe that's a result of the organizational culture, messages and tone of driver's meetings, vetting procedures and generally high standards, ample track time, morning warmup session, policy of drivers being bumped down if they're not performing at the level of their current run group (I've seen Chin drivers bump themselves down), etc.

I would think Chin is lower. One thing they say at every drivers meeting is to remember to that the trophy that we take home is the car we brought and that we (the drivers) are what will make for a good event. Should go without saying but it always helps to be reminded.

Putting the right thoughts and attitudes in people's minds right before they go on track definitely makes a difference. I've never seen anyone do that better than Mark.

I agree 100%. It's about establishing expectations. As I see some groups relax just a little, I see incident rates climb. That said, I've seen some well-established DE programs locally, that practice this well, have significant incident rates per participant/mile.

I added the italics and underlined because I don't think Mark takes much, if anything, for granted. Vigilant, consistent, decisive, forceful... Whatever you want to call it, I see even the most jaded drivers and pros look up in Mark's driver's meetings. Even if they've heard it a thousand times before.

More people could do this. They just choose not to...

That big-ass conch shell he blows would make the dead look up :roflmao:

Gary

Totally disagree. Ok experiences with Chin, but they are nothing special. Many PCA red groups are good in the NE, a few kinda suck. YMMV.

If you want a platinum track day, imho it’s DMTD. No question.

It's great your experience has been different in your region, but for testing purposes (for us) PCA DEs have literally been a waste of time (historically). Imagine being asked to slow down in RED. DMTD can surely be good - and it also can't.

Chin just seems to have the right balance/flow/courtesy/track time for what we need, and a great alternative to renting the entire track. I wouldn't even say we are "frequent flyers" of Chin Events (maybe twice in the last 3/4 years), but when time is needed at a certain track, the Chin Schedule is the first place checked....and we are usually late doing it which leads to begging/pleading/desperate emails to Mark and/or Jim.:roflmao:

I mostly drive with Chin. Really like everything about them (except windows down rule...different thread though) However I appreciate how the run there events and how they classify drivers.

At 1 point in my de driving career which at that time years ago had only been Sebring and Barber I signed up for Homestead as my usual advanced solo. They put me down in the next lower class but after a couple sessions I picked up the track well...did a very quick check out and moved to my advanced solo class.

I really appreciate the way Mark Hicks did this. Works great for many reasons.

Why would a racing team be TESTING at a "high performance drivers EDUCATION" event?

I would agree. An HPDE is a terrible place for a racing team to do a test'n'tune for cup cars. I'm not sure how to put an event that offer super cheap track time and insurance for a race team.

Well, it’s simple economics and if you know the organization well enough it’s relatively safe, and cheaper than renting the track for yourself. The danger is the unknown, which has been discussed here. The DE organization makes all the difference- others here have posted that race teams test and run with Chin on a regular basis so that must be a vote of confidence.

That's it......check and see how much it costs to rent a place like Mid-O for a day or two for your race team's TnT...... BIG $$$. If I had a race team and had the blessing of the group holding the event I'd run with' em too, as long as I behaved myself which is the case most of the time in my experience. Only once have I seen a race team act like they owned the place at a HPDE; they were not there the second day. By design? Don't know, but these people are usually very good AFA following the rules of the day.

Most recently, late last year Kuno Wittmer and his CTSCC (or whatever they're calling it now) team ran with us at an open track day @ Mosport and they were all great, on-track and off.

Gary

That's been my experience. It's the teams that buy into the culture of the track day, not vice versa, at least at Chin... Most of the time at DMTD.

Sharing the track in Chin Red with race teams hasn't presented any problems in my experience, and it's fun to be out there with them.

It was cool passing the race Miatas at Mid O ... until it rained, and then they schooled me. :eek:

And there it is. :thumbup:

Everyone wants rules. No one wants to get punted. No one wants to be frustrated by drivers who don't provide point-bys. Everyone wants drivers to be in their proper run groups.

However, no one wants to be told that they are not as good as they think they are. And therein lies the problem.

Most people want to drive solo as quickly as possible. Some regions encourage this so that they can keep taking in green students and have enough instructors.

Most people want to get to the top run group as soon as possible because it is a status thing. It is a RARE driver who would say "I am not ready yet."

The desire to attract drivers to fund events (and money with the for profit HPDE groups) causes a conflict with driver readiness and safety.

These problems will not go away unless and until PCA regions and other HPDE groups do a better job of holding drivers back until they are ready. Some PCA regions and HPDE groups do a better job and some do a really poor job.

Problems caused by rapid driver advancement are endemic in PCA as well as other HPDE groups and not many people have the stomach to address the issue.

At the February Road Atlanta Chin event last year, there may have been a race team or three LOL. Their massive trailers and support crews kinda give them away. Frankly, they never posed a problem, they were so fast that the real issue was ensuring to give them point-byes early enough. For me it was a nice exercise working on ‘open passing’ and track awareness. Running with race teams is fun if you point them by early, don’t try and keep up/race them and exercise sound judgment and situational awareness.

At Chin events, I haven't really noticed a problem with drivers being over-eager to move up. Drivers don't move from Green to Yellow (solo) unless their instructor can confidently recommend them for a checkout, and then a separate checkout instructor does the checkout. Blue is passing anywhere with a point-by, and there are plenty of fast cars in Blue, since a lot of instructors run in Blue. Red typically has a lot of fast cars, point-bys are expected to be given anywhere without delay, and drivers will be moved back to Blue if they don't cut it in Red, so people don't usually seek to be in Red unless they have good reason to be confident they can meet the expectations.

OTOH, at PCA events, I've seen problems on both sides:

- Drivers over-eager to move up, often because their buddies have been moved up and they don't want to be left behind.

- Drivers who are held back too long. This can cause drivers to lose confidence in their ability to progress as drivers, and/or the embarrassment of not progressing can cause some drivers to stop coming to events (or at least PCA events).

It may vary from one region to the next, but there are boatloads of drivers with more ego than talent that are filtered by the Chin methods. That's why the process is so good, you don't see what Mark, Maria and crew have to deal with to keep some guys from blowing a lid when they aren't promoted to Red or Blue instantly. Rarely are guys humble enough to admit they aren't quite ready.

Truth

I thought I was one of those people.

Started with a DE organization about 13 years ago, and to spare feelings, I will refrain from naming them. Good organization run by good people but very loose in how they promoted people. So long as you kept attending you got promoted. After attending 2 -3 track days I was solo and after a handful more days, over the course of another year, I was in HPDE 3. The only problem is that I should have still been in green.

I have video of myself driving at Monticello Motor Club, back in the days when they would let people rent the track, and I am horrible. But I am in HPDE 3.

Fast forward to about ten years ago and I join CVR and get thrown into green. "Wait a minute", I cried "I should be in white."

I was driving my trusty 944T, didn't know how to heel/toe, probably lapping Lime Rock in 1:15, and had no notion of the line. But I thought I was too good to be in green and was pissed.

Looking back they did me the biggest favor in the world.

In my experience drivers who are "held back to long" are people like me.

This thread has been a very entertaining read... a nice little focus group. I'm on the Chief Instructor staff with Chin. There's never been a time when I've hopped in for a checkout ride and thought..."I hope this guy is fast enough to pass". It certainly is possible for lack of pace to be an issue, but if that is the issue, it's probably not the only issue...

Look at what Peter and a few others have pointed out... it's overwhelmingly about awareness, judgement, and TIMELY decision-making. The good news is, if you're not quite there yet, we can and REALLY DO want to help you get there. There are no secrets. If anyone wants to talk more about your specific situation and goals, just stop by the trailer.

Jim McGovern

In my opinion you are rare. However, RL is filled with people who are passionate about the sport so perhaps there will be a disproportionate amount of people here who feel as we do.

That being said, I think the life-cycle of someone who takes driving on the track seriously, and it doesn't matter if they race or DE, is that in the beginning stages most people want to drive solo and then advance as quickly as possible.

Later, when you are more aware of your skills you realize you can learn something from someone else and start to look for instructors again.

That is how it worked with me. I had to learn a little to realize how little I knew and how much I still needed help.

You can add me to that list.

On my way up the run group chart, I purposely held myself back in the lower run groups just to get the extra instruction.

I had no problem staying in Yellow an extra few events and then Blue instructed an extra few events so I wouldn't lose the right seater.

I think it has paid off for me over the long run. I still take an instructor out with me at least for 1 session at every DE I do (where it's feasible and there are available instructors).

I think the more instruction you get at the novice levels, the better you'll be as a track driver long term.

Just my $.02...

I think Mark is a very perceptive, aware and wise learner. Same with LV. You, too, dgrobs.

The people that progress the most are people RE people who come to realize how much a challenge the best execution of fundamental skills are, and as they progress, realize there is that much more to learn.

I’ll only add that as an instructor and coach doing this pretty much full time for a few decades, that more instruction is not always the best instruction, just like pounding around doing laps is not the best way to practice.

Probably less so now because there are more readily available resources, but I spent a lot of time not so long ago retraining drivers and helping others to unlearn old wives tales, paddock talk and outright fallacies passed around over and over again.

With the burgeoning ITS programs, Ross Bentley and others helping spread good, proven, conventional wisdom, I think there’s less variation in the material presented and the education is more consistent. It’s all
good...

The more I learn, the less there is to learn, so I'm learning more and more about less and less.

Won't be long before I know everything about nothing....

Those who become, and are, 'experts' are perpetual students.

being relegated to the back -reminds me of this classic.

Very cool. Never saw that one before.

Hahaha! Ken... smdh

And there's this classic. Warning "F" bomb at the end

Man, how have I never seen this one before either? Damn, you guys are good!!

No, it's just that we've been around... :D

Like...around...as in around in other threads?

Umm, since before there were threads... ;)

I guess he followed the instructor's directive and brought the tail around :eek:

Peter has been coaching for so long he once referred to Fangio as a noob.

True story.

I find Chin to be very clicky with extreme favoritism. Some of us can’t run with them frequently due to schedule conflicts, location, ect ect. I showed up at Barber earlier this year and despite running laps faster then almost anyone there they refused to move me up because “I didn’t hit the curbing hard enough” on my sign out drive. Sorry my RS doesn’t like curbs. I also sat behind numerous “Advanced” drivers on my sign out who failed to notice my faster car behind them and took ridiculously long time to give point by. I did over 50 track days last year alone and instruct at local events, didn’t matter. The curbs were more important. While I’m glad they take a cautious approach to take protect their upper echelon drivers, it’s not pleasant to pull long distances only to sit in slower traffic because someone you frequently lap during their Happy Hour wants to show you who’s boss. Again, not trying to be bitter, but it’s a very clicky group that makes outsiders feel unwelcome.

Hahaha! I'm a contemporary of his nephew, the IMSA Toyota GTP ace, but that's about it... ;)

That doesn't fit my Chin experience at all. How many Chin events have you done? Seems like you had an anomalous experience.

Like, you avoided all of the curbs? I couldn't imagine doing a lap at Barber using no curbs. The only real useable curbs are at the museum, the kink and over the bridge. Other than the kink I couldn't imagine you being all that fast using none of them.

That being said, my first experience with Chin was similar. I drove down from my home near Road Atlanta to spectate. Loved the facilities and look of the track so much I drove back home and got my car for Sunday. Ended up in green with an instructor. Lapped everyone. Instructor immediately set me up for a check ride. Check ride instructor took me out in blue. Lapped just about everyone in that group too. They checked me off for solo, but in Green. I was salty for a while. The best, but most ego bruising aspect of Chin is that they take precautions regardless of how you drive or how good you think you are. You gotta pay your dues like everyone else did. Once you do, you appreciate how they do things.

Ive been driving with Chin for 10 years and instructing off and on for 8 or so. There are no clicks, just other guys like us who risk getting in the right seat to make the whole event safer for everyone. Now that I've seen personally what goes on I wouldn't have it any other way.

I only run with Chin 2-3 times per year, they have always been extremely accommodative and professional in my experience. I’ve never noticed any “clicky” behavior that was off-putting at all. Yes, Chin has some regulars that know each other and enjoy each other’s company... a sign of a healthy organization if you ask me. I was at the same event in February at Barber instructing and driving in the advanced group... I’m sorry for your experience, however from my experience Chin’s advanced group is the gold standard for the HPDE community. Yes, I also had a advanced group check-ride despite my National PCA instructor card, yes I’m glad they give red check-rides to EVERYONE. I have zero affiliation with Chin, I just think PCA National could learn a lot from how Chin runs events.

Chin is an awesome organization. Their events are run extremely well and the people in charge are very professional. I have never had a bad experience at a Chin event. I've ran advanced solo and have also instructed with them. Yes they might be a little more strict than some other organizations but I've never found that to be intrusive or overbearing. If you're a good driver and know the track you shouldn't have a problem with a check out ride. It's not personal.

Agree that check outs to move up is a good idea. I’ve run with a lot of organizers where people sign up for advanced who absolutely don’t belong, they are unsafe and dangerous to drive around; it’s no fun to report these folks to organizers because it leads to uncomfortable situations. My gripe with Chin is that they use the metric of how many times have you run with Chin as the primary determining factor as to whether you are moved up. I knew both times I attempted check outs with them over the years just based upon body language and how they interacted with me that I would not get moved up simply because I don’t run with them often, and that was before even turning a lap on track. I have no problem running down groups at tracks I’ve never been too, but it’s no fun to run down groups at a track you run frequently.

This is just blatantly false. I know people that have check rided directly to red group their first ever Chin event.

I’m sorry that you have had a frustrating experience, it is just very different from my experience. Just FYI, one of my endurance racing teammates had NEVER run with Chin prior to signing up to test our race car 2 weeks ago at NCM with Chin. He paid for the annual Chin membership, and was assigned to “provisional solo”. He had a lead/follow check ride (single seat race car)with the checkout instructor and was placed in red/advanced group. His first ever event with Chin, he went from “provisional solo” to advanced group on the same day. My teammate was impressed with Chin’s approach after the fact.

I’m glad others have had good experiences, I’m running with them again soon. Will see how it goes. Maybe 3rd time in 3 years will be better! Anyone who knows me and drives with me on track knows I am considerate driver who values safety and respect for others on track. The trophy and payout at the end of these events sucks, so it’s important to be safe and have fun. But, fun isn’t being stuck behind drivers learning when you’ve been doing this along time. I’ll let you all know how it goes.

Yep, I was one of those people who got a checkout for Red at my first Chin event. I was an instructor with a couple other organizations and started the event in Blue. Chin told me that, if I want a checkout for Red, just let me them know and they'll schedule it. I decided to do the checkout and passed, but it wasn't a no-brainer pass, and they clearly had high standards.

I've done lots of instructing and checkouts for Chin at numerous tracks, and a driver's past experience at Chin events was NEVER a consideration in whether to recommend someone for a checkout nor when evaluating them during a checkout. If a driver is ready to move up, Chin wants them to move up. If a driver isn't ready to move up, Chin wants to help them develop the skills needed to move up.

I've never observed a 'clique' mindset at Chin events, though that certainly often exists at events of the marque car clubs, where the 'social club' aspect is strong.

^^^ Truth.

As a Chin instructor I've *never* considered how many track days a student has as a criteria for advancement - it always comes down to do they have the skills or not. Also keep in mind that Chin does not have exclusive instructors. They instructor corps they use primarily come from the local area and instruct for other clubs - they only difference at a Chin event is the subtle changes due to Chin's rules - and none of those rules include # of Chin events attended.

Also as a Chin instructor, my experience has been they respect my judgement and, when appropriate, even let me run a newbie in Blue. This was an exceptional student at his first Chin event and third track day period and he got noticed. If I had asked, I'm certain they would have allowed to me to run him in Red. It's all about demonstrating skills. Sure these were not check rides, but the old "I'm going to run you in the next run group and see what happens" is a classic technique to determine if a student is really ready for the check ride.

The story of that Chin event is here: Ever had a student...

The bottom line is if your Chin instructor thinks you are ready for a check ride you're going to get a check ride. I've never had "how many Chin events have they attended?" be a check ride request response.

-Mike

Because I wasn't slamming my car over the curbs in 7-9 complex and making my car fly off the ground, I was told I was "too hesitant." and obviously "not ready" to run fast laps. Sorry but my RS doesn't like to be thrown off balance into the air. Obviously used the curbs at other areas. When my harness didn't fit the lady giving the check out ride appropriately she looked really annoyed, so I knee immediately what was going to happen next. We went out, I drove some conservative laps and was running comfortably 1:38 lap times while being respectful and carrying on a conversation with her, all the while passing most other cars on track and being held up by other advanced drivers not paying attention. But not making my car fly through the air off the curbs in that section was the main issue. I have friends who I run with in other groups and often instruct with Chin, they were shocked when I told them this story. Like I said, will see at next event how it goes again.

This mostly fits my thinking, though I do think there should be (and are) some minimum experience expectations to run solo in Yellow, Blue, or Red (that experience doesn't have to be at Chin events).

No matter how much skill a driver demonstrates with a checkout instructor in the right seat, checkouts are only snapshots, and it's also important that drivers have enough experience dealing with rain, all of the flags, other drivers doing weird things, cars spinning in front of them, etc. I wouldn't want a driver running solo, especially in Blue or Red, who's only ever seen a subset of the flags on track and generally only experienced normal track conditions where everything was going smoothly.

Also keep in mind that, at Chin events, passing anywhere is allowed during the happy hour sessions, so a solo driver should demonstrate competence in handling that, and a checkout for Yellow in the Green/Yellow group isn't going to directly evaluate that.

Chin has some guidelines regarding experience levels for the run groups on their website, and I believe that drivers are generally screened for experience before being scheduled for a Red checkout:

http://chintrackdays.com/driver-categories.aspx

When I do checkouts, I do generally ask drivers about their overall experience and their experience at that particular track, though what I observe during the checkout of course carries the most weight by far.

That guys lack of experience is what kept me in the right seat all weekend. I don't care how good someone is, they aren't going from newbie to solo in one weekend with near-zero track experience. His pace actually set him back a bit because I had almost no idea what he would do with a mirror full of cars.*

-Mike

*My student at the last event was very good at hitting his marks until he had a car in his mirror and then his performance went "poof". As you all know, this is not uncommon with novices.

Sounds like an anomaly. That would not be the case often, though there is much more to signing off than overall speed. Too hesisltant could also mean other things. But I would expect a check ride instructor to be thorough in explanation of not checking you off.

I will say that the curbs in museum are very gentle as they are are between two braking zones in short succession. I can understand avoiding 9/10 curbing.

Yep...

I just did a back to back with Chin and another org recently as the track was a bit away from me and I wanted to amortize the travel time. Experience with Chin was great - first time running with them period and I was placed into Novice solo initially. Got a check out ride and got into intermediate. No issue all weekend.

The following two days was a diff org. Really nice folks, but different system... Both videos below were from late in the day from day 1. This isn't intended to suggest I'm a great driver - I'm not - nor is it to shame the other drivers in the videos (well, maybe the Vette driver who gave me the point by...) as we all started somewhere. But the experience in the intermediate groups was not the same.

BTW I have a FRS, so in case you're wondering why I'm not giving it 120% when trying for the pass, I am!! :)

You got high level guys needing Chin checkout rides. You got National PCA instructors need Chin checkout rides. Curious...What makes the Chin checkout guy so capable that he can judge pro racers, licensed instructors, SCCA national champions etc? Those Chin guys must be like F1 Super licensed. What do you have to do to be a Chin checkout guy?

It doesn't take super competence to judge baseline competence.

Some people lie about being instructors. Shocking, but true.
Some pro racers have no idea how to behave in a DE.
Some SCCA national champions might drive like assholes.
Some "advanced run group drivers" are a menace to themselves and others.
Some people lie about everything.

If someone's ego is too large, and their understanding of the responsibilities of the organizers is too small to be given a check ride, then they probably don't belong on the track at the event. Put another way, if someone refused to be checked out, I'd send them home. It's a warning sign.

.

It's more verification of stated skillset and confirmation of willingness to abide by Chin standards. It's not that complicated and does not take a pro racer to do.

Funny story, a national PCA instructor and good friend came to Road Atlanta once. First time ever in his fairly new GT3 First lap as he's telling me his long list of accolades with PCA, he drives straight through turn 3 into the grass, no brakes at all. Then proceeded to follow the motorcycle track through the esses.

As I've mentioned before we have had big groups of instructors come from all over the country, some have been miserable, at least when it comes to learning a new track and some just not that great and have been demoted quickly. Some racers far too aggressive treating the event like a race practice session.

It doesn't matter your accolades, a new to you track like Mid Ohio, Barber or Road Atlanta will make you look like a bumbling fool before eating your car. Chin has higher scrutiny levels for these tracks, so expect to check your ego at the door.

It's usually Chins most veteran instructors with good feedback from students that are promoted to doing check rides. The process works and is a good one.

There's a reason Chin is the biggest provider of track days in the country and by and large has a very high rating among attendees. As far as pleasing everybody, I'm sure you know the old addage........

For sure. People who do this are often big fish in small ponds, many have outsized assessments of their own awareness and skill set. This, in itself, does not disqualify someone from the capability to improve, so there is hope. But, Mike's unvarnished observations are supported by the data... ;) As a professional in this field with a toe in many different ponds, it's been my observation, too.

The process, policies, procedure and execution of Chin events have been refined and improved for a long time through many events, all over the country. The sample pool is very large. That's a good thing, for sure.

I recently ran with Chin at Road Atlanta after not having visited that track in several years. I have years of laps at Sebring and can hold my own there as a result. Boy, first session out, did RA ever put me in my place. I’m glad I wasn’t out in the red group I normally run at Sebring.

I needed an entire day to get back to a semblance of respectability there. A few laps with Ron Zitza at the wheel was quite helpful in refreshing my memory.

As others have repeatedly stated, Chin runs an awesome program!

What's the big deal with getting a checkout? It's one session in the run group the driver wants to be in, and the checkout instructor will often provide some coaching in the latter half of the session if the driver is doing well. If the driver passes, they continue on in their new run group. If they don't pass, it's obviously good that a checkout was done. Some organizations, including some PCA regions, don't have high standards to become instructors, so being an 'instructor' somewhere doesn't necessarily mean that the guy is even a decent driver.

A checkout instructor with Chin will be someone with ample driving and instructing experience, who Chin knows well from numerous events, and who Chin believes can be trusted to make good judgments about whether drivers should be in the various run groups. The driving ability of a checkout instructor needs to be at the level of a solid Red driver; racing experience is neither required nor of much relevance (and obviously, not all 'licensed racers' are good drivers).

I initially avoided commenting but...... your repeated insistence on "passing everybody out there" is troubling to me. Passing a bunch of other cars means.... pretty much nothing. It means you have a fast car (GT3RS). It says nothing about the driver or his/her ability.

I've run many times with Chin and have instructed for them numerous times. Just like pretty much what everyone else said, my experience has been completely different from yours. There are no "cliques" or good ol' boy syndrome you can sometimes see at PCA events. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about (just like everyone else).

I've also done check out rides for Chin. They don't care if you pass a bunch of cars (again, it means very little). They're looking for car control, track knowledge, situational awareness, watching your mirrors, knowing ALL flag stations, etc. If a checkout instructor went out with you and didn't pass you, there is clearly a reason (or two or many). S/he may not have verbalized or written down all of them so as not to offend you. I know I've done that when I didn't pass someone after a checkout - I was purposely not too critical as to not offend or discourage the student. Perhaps s/he thought you were parking it in corners, perhaps your lines were bad, perhaps you missed flag stations, perhaps you didn't listen to any feedback, perhaps there was a faster car behind you and you were oblivious for a while, who knows, I have no idea. But there was a clear reason why you were held back.

FWIW, Chin passes majority of drivers after checkout rides. What I mean by that is they're not a bunch of pompous pricks sitting around waiting to fail students for "not hitting curbs hard enough". Majority pass; failures are a small minority. I KNOW because I have access to their live checkout ride spreadsheet. It shows bunch of info including who passed and who failed and why.

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with Chin. However, their policy is in place for a reason and it works. Most guys think they're great drivers or at least far better drivers than they actually are. FWIW, I got a checkout ride at my first Chin event and when I asked to move up to Red. I also got checkout(s) at tracks that I haven't run with Chin before. Now they know me decently well and don't really ask anymore, but that's AFTER building up mutual trust. ANOTHER POINT: whenever I go to a track I've never driven before, I always try to borrow a fellow instructor during the 1st session (if possible) and have them talk me through the lap. Whether I'm driving or a passenger, this type of ride-along is greatly helpful, I find.

The Chin model seems a good one - no issues with being checked out and placed appropriately

Right on the money

I've been a Chin driver for 4 years and instructor for 2.

They are the most professionally run organization I've driven with, because they ARE professionals.

As such, they run on a business model and the bottom line is closely tied with returning customers.

Chin goes far and above to provide customer satisfaction.

That they do so, for the the large part, without compromising safety is impressive. (My experience has seen far more black flags at any given club event than at a Chin event.)

(I'm not dissing the clubs here--clubs are fuelled by the dedication and passion of volunteers for whom I have thr utmost respect.
Just that clubs vs a professional org are two are different animals.)

My comment here pertains to driver promotion.

One important piece missing (or at least I didn't see it) this thread is HOW do Chin instructors DECIDE to promote and evaluate students.

Here's how:

Chin was the first organization AFAIK to develop a skill rubric. Instructors are expected to use a uniform evaluation table for every student and are expected to give student feedback after every session on track.

There's a very clear method for helping students/instructors quantify driver skill level. Students can see where they are and what needs to be done to advance.

Also Chin has very specific written criteria for a check ride to Yellow, Blue and Red. If a driver wishes to evaluate his/her readiness for a check ride, it's simply a matter of comparing their own the skill level to that of the Yellow or Blue or Red check ride criteria.

The more recently developed SLIP HPDE online evaluation tool emulates the Chin rubric.

To my recollection I have never had a club DE chair show me a written check ride criteria for advancement of student other than what is on the SLIP table and even that is very rarely referenced.
OTOH Chin has emphasized the criteria for a check ride at every instructor meetings and shares written criteria at each instructor meetings.

The point is that, although nothing's perfect, having a written evaluation rubric for check rides
minimizes the SUBJECTIVITY ( or cliquishness if you wish) wrt check rides and student evaluations overall.

And, FWIW, I'm not among the "gifted golden child" drivers who gets on track and is promoted to red the same day.
I am the "blood sweat and tears to shave down every few tenths of a second" driver and still drive in Chin blue and PCA black/red even four years after my first ever Chin day. I am also a much appreciated/sought-after instructor so that bit comes a bit more naturally to me. But I do listen carefully to feedback.

My first Chin event I was given way more critical feedback than I expected/wanted to hear. But I listened very carefully. Then I came back the following month and improved. Then at third Chin event at Rd Atlanta I was promoted to solo.

On that day, I found myself teaching an EXPERIENCED racer friend the importance of vision "look for the flagger and keep your eyes on the bridge coming out of T so and so to avoid being fixated on the concrete barrier."
He said that nobody had ever taught him that because he had "finessed" his way into racing early in the DE process and had never been promoted "through the ranks."

If we are open to learning we can learn something new from each other and at every track day. Ego gets in the way of that.

I like driving with Chin. Best track experiences overall. More track time, better driving, run a tight ship.

because their primary function for a driver with an advanced resume is sniffing out lying.

-Mike

OK, I'm responding because you mentioned this multiple times (and I've had a few drinks in me - I've been working overnights! ;)).

(This post was needlessly harsh-sounding. Sorry, that was not my intent).

Every curb is different and it also depends on how much of the curbing you hit. But it's not necessarily accurate to say or think that a certain car cannot hit any curbing at all.

Andy Pilgrim, who set the record at NCM in the GT2RS, said the same thing (that the car gets too unsettled over curbing unless it's really small) in a seminar where he showed the line and the corner by corner analysis. Granted, it's a different car, but he's a pro and that was his experience. He did say that he took the 1a curbing for the youtube video but in the record lap he avoided most of the curbs (or at least the big portions). His record lap is at the end and even in the commentary he talks about the car being unsettled over curbing:

Thank you for that. Looks like I may have been wrong......

EDIT: OK, now I've had time to review the video and it shows him hitting pretty much every single curb at NCM. Yes, the car may get unsettled if hitting TOO much curbing, but we weren't talking about Cup car/RSR curb jumping either. Street RS hitting ordinary curbs for ordinary track day.

Oh man, cars not going over curbs? Don't look at any videos of fast cars going through the Bus Stop at the Glen.......

Gary
(though I will admit the Mini does not like the Bus Stop's entry curb, Chung--kinda makes it leave the ground :))

I have all 4 on entry and exit curbing of bus stop.

I don't recall using any curbing at LRP.

So I guess it depends on the track and severity of curbing.

I quote Andy - "The RS does not like to use a lot of curb." Maybe it's semantics, maybe it's just a difference in terms of how pros describe curbing usage vs. us mere mortals, but those are his words, not mine. Also, he did not touch every single curb, not by a long shot. He specifically mentioned 1a as one that really unsettles the car and did not touch it.

It's not clear to me that the prior RS poster was saying that his car does not like an inch of curbing (especially flat ones) or that the big ones upset his car. Either way, I have no dog in this, so take the video and Andy's words for what it's worth.

Yep, fastest way through there is a straight line :p

You guys are right, it's not as simple as I stated. Every curb is different and it also depends on how much of it you hit. Some curbs, you want to (ideally) stay away from. Some, you can hit a part of. Some, you can take full on and catch a lil' air. Going fast requires negotiating all of these correctly. Consequences of getting it wrong could be dire - I can unfortunately speak from experience! :eek::eek:

The curbs are far less variable than the position of the throttle when folks hit them.

If the car is thrust positive, it's far less unstable because of the rearward weight transfer.

If they're NOT thrust positive, it can spin the car around on the axis of the point where the tire touches the curb, depending on several things...

Just because you're on the gas does NOT mean you're thrust-positive.

That's what she said

:roflmao:

Coffee up my nose! I really need to get a life... ;)

To clarify, are you saying that thrust-positive requires being on the gas more than enough to overcome drag and rolling resistance?

Would it be reasonable to say that you don't want to be too thrust-positive when going over curbs, because if the curbs bounce the car, being on the gas too much could upset the car when the rear hooks up?

You and me both, apparently!

With regard to the former, yes.

On the latter, not necessarily.

Sudden and/or significant changes in throttle commitment affect (or not, depending on compliance) the rear “hooking up.”

“The car is most stable under slight acceleration.”

Most drivers are not proactive enough with the slight acceleration” part.

As long as this is respected, a majority of curbs will not affect the car’s attitude so adversely that it would require a negative throttle change to corral it, arrest and/or recover the dynamic platform from the disturbance.

A fair number of the newer track curbings (post 2008-2009), are much friendlier than the older ones. Beveled smooth angled (ramped) joints with the asphalt, et cetera.

One size does not fit all, but in my experience, most drivers are not aggressive enough with inside curbing areas, or at least not thrust positive when they rub, nuzzle or otherwise “hit” the curbs. :)

Don't think they got the memo at the Glen, Peter.....here we are a number of years post-repave many of them over there are still quite harsh i.e. Bus Stop entry, Outer Loop exit, T8, 10 and 11 exit.

OTOH, I'll be enjoying the nice, old, smooth dished ones at Mid-O tomorrow, where the racers mainly go over them and plow the grass behind them :p

Gary

For sure, the stepped, Vallelunga style FIA curbings, the ones with more severity the further off the pavement you go, have become a popular deterrent at the Inner Loop (Bus Stop), COTA and behind the original bevel/scalloped curbings at VIR, with varied results. Nothing is going to “help” the car with those other than to straight-line them and hope the side that’s unloaded is on them.

The Mid-Ohio insides at the Keyhole, T4, T6, T9, T11, most of Thunderbolt, Barber, original white curbs at VIR and several others are all good to go!

Have fun!

The bus stop curb doesn't deter spec Boxsters but it's a pretty good jump so I've got to let it bounce once before heading to the exit. Just have to make sure the doors are bolted on tight. :)

Jumping up from the curb back to Chin.

When I started doing DEs for some weird reason I felt Chin was this highly selective club that only took semi-pros. Don’t ask me why. So I started with my local PCA and got lucky to have some great instructors who taught me a lot besides building some great camaraderie. So I owe PCA for a lot of the little I know.

When I bought my first GT car I went crazy and found whatever DE group I could find to make sure I was hitting the track every weekend. Don’t have to tell you it did not last long until the lady boss pulled the plug... So I went back to PCA events only.

Over the last couple years I started getting more and more frustrated with the way they run their events. There is a very subpar signoff process with clueless guys on solo groups. But more annoying is the constant intrusion of racers on solo groups. They let them join any session as long as they follow the rules for that group. So they come in to do you name it and drive bomb you and disregard the need for a point by in the process. Oh, they forgot they were on a DE session...

During the brief “stint of happiness” I got to experience the process with many different DE groups. The scariest thing to see was the number of incidents on the track with some groups compared to others. It was kind of obvious. The more “laid back,” the more crap on track...

The light bulb lit up a weekend at Sebring when Chin had a “skilled driver” open track day on a Friday right before a weekend with my local PCA. I decided to give it a chance. Man, what a great experience. Nice people, well run. I was sold. Since then I have nearly completely converted to Chin and, if anything, regret not doing so much earlier.

Since we are honored to have some Chin folks here I will use the opportunity to go from curb to window. Chin is already the best in the business. But one can always improve. So they could be even better if only they would let us run with windows up. Charge us a fee. Let us sign a waiver. But let’s do it!

I think the check out process is a great idea, however in my opinion it’s highly dependent upon who sits in the right seat. My experience has not been pleasant as you have seen in my posts; perhaps that person was having a bad day and let it shade her opinions? Or perhaps when you pull up in a new $230k RS it creates some biases? Plus, let’s be honest, people who are perceived to be “in charge” have egos and biases. A few years ago at MidOhio I was running with Chin (only previous time) and I was told to run lines that were obviously not correct, but I kept my mouth shut!

Lap times are certainly not the only metric. To me it’s driver safety and predictability. I run with some organizations who have complete open passing with points NOT required. In those situations you MUST be aware at all times what is going on around: is somebody passing you? Are you confident the person you are passing is aware you are there? Do you trust the person you are passing offline to be predictable and not put you both at danger? I personally enjoy driving in these events because you have more power to control what’s happening. Plus, for those of us with higher HP cars it creates more passing opportunities.

Anyways, sorry to veer this post off topic with curbs. Btw, ran Road Atlanta with GT Smokies last week. Wow, what a track! Thankfully I had Peter Trakcar to chase around and show me the lines! Got down to some decent lap times as result.

Sounds like you need to be promoted to the fastest run group so you can drive a little closer to flat out than you can with all the traffic in the other groups.

That video never ever gets old!

The live action sequels are fascinating too!

It's certainly possible. Checkout instructors have to make judgments about whether to pass someone, and their judgments may differ from each other, especially when someone is near the border of passing.

But as someone said previously, it's also possible that there were some things the checkout instructor didn't like with your driving, but didn't convey to you well enough. On average, I believe that a Chin checkout instructor's evaluation of someone's driving will be a lot more reliable than a driver's self-evaluation. Some drivers are pretty modest and humble in their self-evaluations, but there are probably more drivers who overestimate how good they are.

You say that someone at MidO gave you the wrong lines, but how do you know they were "obviously not correct"?

At the risk of derailing this thread yet again (;)), that's a damned good question...

Maybe he had watched the virtual track walks beforehand?

Umm, no. :D

I didn’t know everyone here was such a pro. I told you my very honest assessment of my 2 experiences with Chin. Like I said before I did over 50 track days alone last year and instruct. I’ve been doing this for years. I know what I’m doing. At most events, including Chin, the instructors have less seat time then I do. Yet both times I’ve tried check outs I’ve been nit picked and forced to run in slower groups because “I haven’t run enough with Chin.” I’m glad others haven’t had this experience, but it doesn’t make me want to pull long distances to run with them.

I posted on this thread to put in my thoughts because the OP had similar issues.

Ive run MidO a lot over the years. I know the line.

Hope to see you all at the track someday. I’ve already got in 16 days this year, shooting for over 50 again.

As someone who gives checkout rides for other orgs. I Fail like 50% and I have to be talked into passing the other 50%. SOOOOOO many people get to the mid levels and maybe even get fast but have NO IDEA how to drive. "oh well i tried heel toeing but it wasnt faster" fail.

It’s a good thing there are still people willing to put their ass on the line to help others have fun in this hobby. And that they see things for what they are...

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3423c060f9.jpg

Just got back from there (Mid-O) after a great lapping day Friday; half wet, half dry, half club course, half pro (sounds like lunch at Panera :D) Three-and-a-half hours worth of driving in many of the conditions you might encounter there.

Anyway, regarding "incorrect lines" there, let me simply say that it's the type of track that if you're not driving it "correctly" you're gonna know it right away, especially in the wet :eek: The track, as entertaining as it can be to drive, does NOT suffer fools.

Gary

Peter K. Please define thrust-positive, is there a difference between a low HP momentum car, 944, vs GT3 car

Thrust positive doesn’t care what the platform is, although it would take less throttle percentage to yield a platform that was thrust positive in a GT3 car than an SP car.

The issue, plain and simple, is that the timing and amplitude of the throttle, just before and when (if) the inside front wheel touches the inside curbing, CAN HAVE a profound effect on platform stability when the inside front tire encounters resistance.

I’ve got tremendous information that shows (and I experience this myself in a variety of cars) that if the car is under any sort of positive longitudinal acceleration (at least +0.05 to +0.1g or greater) WHEN this “collision” occurs between one corner of the car and a curbing of any significance (Thunderbolt Turn 2, Mid-Ohio keyhole and Turn 4, the right at the end of the back straight, don’t count because they are on the same plane as the track surface, hence no resistance), the resultant instability is far less than if the Long G is -0.05g or more.

As a matter if fact, I’ve seen well driven, well balanced B-Spec (ultimate momentum cars) tipped into a spin off throttle at T16B at VIR simply because the car was weighted on the nose and the resistance of hitting the curb was enough to pivot the car quickly (too
quickly) on that inside front tire contact patch axis, looking from above.

I’ve seen GT3 cars and Spec Miatas NOT unsettled by significant curbing height when under +0.1g or more, by the time they get there...

Problem is always compounded by the fact that someone has overshot or run wide at entry and they have to come OFF the throttle to “tuck the nose in”
to GET to the apex... Mistake 1.

As the car slows, it’s thrust NEGATIVE until it scrubs enough speed to “hook back up” but when the inside front hits the curb, almost all the weight distribution. To the front is achieved, magnifying the effect of the curb.

Hope this makes sense.

Back to the Chin thread. Sorry...

Great post. You should start a thread for this as it's worthy of it's own discussion. I think once people start to realize thrust positive = acceleration = tire loads, it all starts to make more sense.

Chin provides so much track time with the morning session and the happy hour that even if one doesn't get bumped up it's almost always totally fine. They don't have as many cars per event so even the slowest group has good space usually.

My first event with Chin last year my first session was a checkout ride, the instructor thought I should be in blue, even though my driving was pretty horrible he thought my situational awareness and car control wasn't too bad. I passed on that at that event as I had issues w the car and didn't feel everything was perfect, stayed in yellow, had a mechanical after two sessions had to leave early.

A year later I signed up again, opted for Blue see if I get away w it, got bumped back down to yellow, didn't mind it at all, drove in yellow, good space, good point by etiquette, no complaints. I'm sure I could've gotten a blue checkout ride if I asked, I didn't ask. I can't relate to this obsession about the run groups. I actually like yellow in NNJR PCA quite a bit as well because a lot of times it has 1/3 as many cars as blue white, so it feels like private track time compared to the hustle bustle in blue white.

On that second event with Chin I lost the trans after day one, so I do seem to have a mechanical issue at every event I do w Chin - but other than that, they do a great event.

Maybe Chin is setting you up to fail? Is it possible that one of the Chin guys is messing with your car while you're not looking? Seems like a conspiracy to me....

Yes I suspect sabotage

Chump of the Day(Copyright 2002, Chin Trackdays) is a long standing tradition in the instructors meeting.

Hehe....DTM FTW!!

Erko, what's with the Avocado? You pick up a new track toy?

Yep - new car - I'll try to work up to DTMs Miata laptimes w this thing now, it has more appropriate tires on at least

Hmm, maybe we need to migrate that tradition to TX Chin events. :evilgrin:

-Mike

As the Chin Turns... a short story...

So, Chin Track Days was at Sebring this weekend. Today, a very special person showed up. This person was new to Chin, and claimed to have a significant amount of time at Sebring. An amount of time that would lead any reasonable person to think they were clearly qualified to run "SOLO" at Sebring. In fact, the amount of time claimed would make this a person an extremely experienced "glad to have" at the event... experience that was almost beyond reproach. Still, this person was new to Chin, which means ---> Yep, a Checkout Ride. (Boooo, why do I need a Checkout Ride?!?!?!). As, "luck" would have it, I followed this car thru pit out. Before this car reached the blend line, it was clear something was amiss - as though, the driver was indeed happy to realize which direction he could hammer the throttle in. Blowing Apexes, sideways... LOST on track. Suffice to say, the resume didn't match the execution. Checkout Ride = No Bueno. An experienced instructor was then paired with this person to help him, coach him, which he did. He got better.

TRUST, but VERIFY. The BS stops at Pit Out and there are no apologies made for that. Those who buy-in and are trying to do things the right way expect it to be that way... and thankfully there are a few passionate volunteers that help make it so.

Really? People can’t figure out how to drive a new track safely with awareness without an instructor? I’m not that smart and figured out how to race 20 tracks in three years never seen with a 20 min practice, a qualifying session, and then raced it. I’m certain there are many many more capable drivers than me....

I think you missed the point, what I got was some wanna-be showed up, tried bull#$%ing the folks at Chin because in his mind he was the next Schumacher, and got called/caught on it. It happens in all groups, we had a bozo in CVR (PCA) years ago that showed up with his dad and a GT3. His dad was in Green (rank beginner) and happy but he demanded to be put in Black (most advanced). I mean, he did have a fitted, bright yellow racing suit with "INSTRUCTOR" embroidered all over it after all. They let him run in yellow and I followed him for a bit, came in and told control to get him off the track as he had 0 clue out there. He ended up having a fit and leaving, never saw him again... thank god. First you need to learn to drive, THEN learn how to drive a new track safely with awareness, can't skip part 1..

Jmimac351, that’s awesome.....Chin does it right, sees through people’s BS...places drivers in correct run group.

+1

Even sadder is that with Chin you get 30 minutes of yellow flagged session to learn a new track.

I drove Road Atlanta for first time with Chin. I had driven it on the computer so I knew the general layout but it's always a bit different when you get on it for real but after the yellow flagged session I was at about 90% and definitely able to find my way around and not impede other drivers.

Yup. And they're cool with coaches driving clients around during that session in rental cars to narrate the track! A very useful session.

+1

Just came back from another weekend with BMW club. The advanced group started the weekend with a highly modified Cayman (maybe GT4 clubsport, I didn't have a good look at the car, but giant wing, really low, fat tires, and was loud). He was quickly bumped down to intermediate in the next session, which was my group. Two laps into the second session in the intermediate group, he was leading a train of about 8 cars, and intermediate is not a fast class at BMW... I pitted and asked for space. That guy belonged in novice, no doubt. He also seem to have left early as I did not see him in the next session or the rest of the weekend.

It's unfortunate that people's ego built up by their success in their professional lives (presumably, because it's a frickin expensive hobby, esp with fast and expensive cars) extends to everything else in their lives too.

It's odd, isn't it, that it's exactly "my ego", that would prevent me from acting that way. You know, wouldn't want to be "that" guy.

Right on the money!

No psychologist here, but I think the emotion you're trying to avoid is "shame" by being "that guy." But I get your point, humility and lack of ego isn't the same as not wanting to hurt the ego. Generally though, based on my limited experience on track, those who are trying to protect their ego are far more preferable than those who have an inflated ego. :D

I saw 2 GT2RS's at COTA this weekend, and probably 10 GT3RS's. Tire of choice was a Pirelli DH slick.

I've worked with a couple of "Those guys" and the thought that they are one of "those guys" did not even cross their minds. It's part of the condition.

True. Although a friend of mine did a 2:15 in one of those GT2RS on slicks...

I would bloody hope so. It has 700HP and cup downforce....

Yep. He can actually drive!

I suspect the root of that condition is a fundamental lack of self awareness coupled with a weak sense of self preservation in some cases. The straight line studs that crawl through corners (strong self preservation) vs the straight line studs that fly off the track both unaware of the train of cars behind them and their poor technique.

And yes, the 20 minute morning warmups are great for learning the place.

-Mike

One of the things I like about driving a new track is going out and learning it using my past experience. I have driven with Chin for around 10 years and Mark has finally let me indulge my habit. This is after driving over 30 different tracks and though I will never be the fastest person I do have good situational awareness and can find an Apex. Then I usually find somebody who knows the track and cage a ride to help with the fine points.

That being said said if I sign up with a new group at a track I have never run I don’t bitch if they put me in a novice group. Just go out and drive with Inst and have fun. In NASA TT we see it from time to time when somebody claims a lot but doesn’t demonstrate it on track. Usually the 1st download session takes care of that as we encourage feedback from all the competitors.

Peter

I'm a fairly new instructor with Chin and was at Sebring this weekend with a good student. For whatever it's worth, my opinion is anyone that is new to Chin at that specific track should be required to take a check out ride. I hope I don't sound too melodramatic, but we're the ones risking out lives going on the track with drivers we don't know as well as being in the passenger seat with someone whose ability and mindset is uncertain. If a driver who says he's qualified isn't willing to demonstrate his/her ability prior to going out alone then I have no sympathy for their hurt feelings. Just about everyone who does a few laps with a check out instructor will learn something new about how to get around the track in the least amount of time.

I'm baffled by why there's continued resistance on this topic. Here's a picture in a non-Chin event. It's 6min into the session, and there are 12 cars (excluding cars behind me...) bunched together in intermediate. Does anyone really think this is better?

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9144889a7c.jpg

Just got home from a Chin event. Some personal observations from my weekend there:

1. At registration, a driver is stridently telling the event manager that placement in yellow is inappropriate because of their experience level. Driver has no experience at the track. Event manager repeatedly tells driver that they should spend one session in the Green/Yellow run group and then ask for check ride to blue if they are comfortable with the lap. Driver visibly agitated and persists. Event manager repeatedly and calmly explains that the policy is what the policy is and assures driver it will work out fine. I run into the driver later in the weekend and casually asked how it was going, driver is wearing a blue wrist band and he seems happy with how the weekend is progressing, but wants to tell me about the hassle of having to do a check ride. I follow this driver out of the pits and watch him violate the blend line protocol clearly discussed in the meeting. [eyeroll.jpg]

2. Friend of mine with no experience at the track emailed event manager before registering and inquired as to whether his experience level was adequate to be slotted into yellow and offering to be slotted into novice if not. He instructs with several groups at his home track. He is slotted into yellow. Gets a check ride after two sessions in Green/Yellow run group and then runs the rest of the weekend in blue.

3. Guy I meet is an experienced Spec Miata racer. Never been to this track before. He's in yellow. Spends the whole weekend there without complaint because he's just having fun and enjoying learning a new track, which he hasn't done in a while. Asked him if the traffic was bothering him. "Nah, we all started somewhere, it's kind of fun following people for a little while."

There's a common thread in these stories if you squint hard enough to see it. [As an aside, these stories and this conclusion have nothing to do with OP's buddy, obviously, which was I think well resolved up above.]

This is precisely why I lingered in lower run groups in a 981 CS before I got a GT4. I surely didn't want to be that guy who shows up in a hot car and can't drive to save his life (...and a GT4, of course, is no GT3 RS).

Except for some struggles with CVR, I never pushed to be moved up to higher run groups and always wanted that push to come from instructors. It wasn't until I asked a chief instructor simply to ride with me just so he could give me some pointers, not as a checkout ride, that he said I should be driving in the group two ahead of where I was at the time (blue). For the most part, I'm still in the group just below that recommendation...and I'm just fine. All in due time.

I remember when I went to Maria and asked for a check ride for Red Group at Sebring my home track. She said I expected you to ask for the last 2 years but I was happy in Blue and only went to Red for a little less traffic.

Peter

I went through the check-out process today at Mid Ohio, and it couldn’t have gone more smoothly. Checkout was in the red advanced group, ran half of the first session. Completed the quick flag test they had setup on a laptop. Done.

It was also interesting to note they had a pass/fail board setup and not everyone gets the nod as it should be. The amount of situational awareness in all groups as evident during the “Happy Hour” session was top notch. Highly recommended.

I was at MidOhio with Chin last few days. As you may recall I was critical of the checkout I had at another event a few months ago....I still stand by that ridiculous checkout ride critique that I was not ready to move up because I didn’t “hit those curbs” at Barber.

However, it was obvious to Chin I didn’t belong in Blue at MidOhio and was immediately moved up to Red. Everyone at Chin was very friendly and the event ran smoothly. Everyone in Red was skilled and had amazing awareness to allow passing that rarely effected lap times. As a result I personally will be running more events with Chin now.

on a side note, this concluded an awesome month of May for me. 5 different tracks this month. The 2019 GT3 RS ran beautifully...eclipsed 4000 miles on it already!

I've considered running with Chin before but my schedule hasn't allowed it. After reading this thread, my next COTA run will certainly be with them!

I'm signed up to run with TDE later this month in Angleton at MSR, and they said with my experience I could probably run solo, but I told them I haven't done DE in my 911 yet, and have not run an event with them, and wanted to start at the bottom so they were happy that was my response and would evaluate such over the weekend as to where I belong. I'm glad these organizations take this stuff as seriously as some of us do, taking our babies out on track!

Wheel to wheel racer and Chin instructor here. There has been plenty of good discussion here about the format/organization, but let me know if anyone has questions.

The only thing I will say is that DE is nothing like a wheel to wheel race. It 100% makes sense to give a racer some seat time in a DE to get used to the format, even if it's Lewis Hamilton.

Anybody see that video of the GT3 car crashing into the BRZ at a DE event? That's why.

So a Chin checkout ride would have prevented this...

Without a doubt. If an instructor had rode with the "racecar driver" then he would have immediately seen that the driver cannot drive in a DE environment. Unfortunately, this was not a Chin event.

But if you the Chin instructor did not know the guy how would you know he could not drive in a DE environment?

What? If you're riding with the driver, then you can properly assess his skill level and track awareness. Why do you need to personally know the driver?

With no one who personally rode with the gt3 driver how can you say if you rode with him you would draw the conclusion he was not suited for DE?

I do an occasional DE but came from DE like so many others as my 1st way to get on track. I’ve been wheel to wheel for decades. I’m having a hard time understanding the repeated chin philosophy of the checkout ride looking for skill level and track awareness. If some one races and especially if race licensed can you explain what skills or track awareness a racer would have under race conditions yet lack for a DE? I’m not putting down DE but honestly racing is like chess and DE is like checkers.

Well, in DE, you can still crash just as hard as you can in racing... ;)

FBB, I prefer to think of it as a “validation ride.”

I remember traveling to Watkins Glen for a Chin event many years ago to work with a few drivers who had great experience at other tracks and were sensible, yet very quick and had big cars.

They weren’t “racers,” but even though they supplied a lengthy resumes, they still were informed they were going to be in a “lesser” (my quotes) run group but would be eligible for a checkout ride after the first session at a “new to them” track.

I remember one of my clients asking me to calm down when I shared my righteous indignation with him that we might not be able to “do what we came for.”

Well, my frustration was misplaced and in error. They all took the first session to get acclimated and do our normal first session task of hitting their marks, went out with a checkout instructor the next session, all demonstrated that they were in fact “smooth as buttah” and that was that, they were “validated” for red group.

When I had time to think about it, and after a lengthy but friendly discussion with Mark Hicks about it, it really made a lot of sense.

Some of us, you and I included, have been blessed with working, driving and racing with people who are what they say they are and do what they say they will do. Unfortunately, as evidenced above and in countless other instances, people are guilty of “puffery” (look it up) at the least and outright bs and lying about their experience and capabilities in other cases.

Chin is a private event. It’s an eco system that, while it may have a few glitches and interpersonal issues between people (pretty normal these days), works. I would say the skill level and combination of car capability/driver skill is very high for s non competitive event. So, to me, caution and this procedure is what they do, warranted and prudent.

My .02

"validation ride" is a good term form it - as we know the pufferers and outright liars are out there. Your experience also makes sense - why would a pufferer or liar hire a coach when they already know everything?

-Mike

When we interview engineers in my firm, we always give a technical quiz, to see if their demonstrable knowledge and skills line up with the education and experience their resume portrays. Sometimes it lines up, but often it doesn't. We've had people from no-name universities with good grades do great on the quiz and become star employees. We've also seen people with PhDs from reputable universities, again with good grades, do marginally on the quiz and become mediocre employees. Overall, we've given the technical quiz to about a hundred applicants over the years, and have found that performance on the quiz is a better predictor of performance on the job than the resume.

Having done many dozens of checkouts for Chin, I see the Chin checkout process as having similar intention and value.

^ +1 We use Wunderlick to screen all employees- it is the best predictor of success. FYI- the topic of my original post won the Super Tour at Mid Ohio, but didn’t have the best race at the June Sprints. Would have been fun to see what he thought of the process with Chin, shame his plans changed.

Chin Red Group - Barber Park.


Chin Blue Group - Sebring


Chin Red Group - Road Atlanta

Man, you're magnet... For unaware drivers... ;)

OMG! I have to agree with Peter...you seem to be a magnet. My experience is that incidents like these would be exceptions rather than the rule at a Chin event. However, we have all seen stupid things on track which is why Mark/Jack/Jim/Bill/Austin will stress safety and cooperation between drivers at every Chin drivers meeting. I hope that, in all of those cases, that you got a car number and / or description and came by the trailer to report to the chiefs (of which I am one). I can assure you that any chief would have gone by to have a talk with the driver (as I have done many times) to get their side of the story. And having video evidence, like you do, would not leave any room for excuses (and I have heard them all).

Really? Really doing the "tattle tail" thing? Geez there are people with real problems fighting cancer. Telling mom on you is just so 1st grader. To all those who think that the car in front of you should jump out of the way there is this thing called the hot pits. You drive into it and make your arms wide to the starter and he will put you out in less traffic. If you are always the frustrated FTOD, Vettel is on his way out...Ferrari will be calling you.


First let me say that videos lie. I have seen too many times where the video looks like one thing but the real story is something else. So I got my fireproof driving suit on...No disrespect to Newman but I really don't see a problem.

For all the high and mighty talk about Chin those 3 example of driving are no different than a particular highly attended highly like HPDE group here in SoCal with nearly zero rules and zero instructors and zero checkout rides. Can I assume that Chin red is open passing? If so I don't see the beef. If the passing is open then you pass where it is safe to do so, If the sports racer for any number of good reasons felt the left pass was better and you point right big deal. He does not have to go right any more than a less comfortable driver is required to pass you if you point in an area he is not comfortable passing. And it looks like you were smack in the middle of the track both lanes left and right are open. An aware driver really does not need to point. You place your car strategically to influence where you want that guy to pass. Remember the cardinal rule the passer must do so safely and takes responsibility for the safe pass. But you can direct the pass and force him to make a safe pass. The red miata with instructor at Barber...well you moved up on him fast but then put on the brakes and failed to present yourself and then you are disappointed he retook the line to the apex? I think you were not decisive nor predictable.

Well I'm no instructor and only occasionally do HPDE and 99% of my track driving has been wheel to wheel racing. Maybe I don't understand the HPDE culture but to me HPDE and racing are just driving on the track and all the rules we use in racing should apply...things like awareness, being predictable, holding your line, presenting yourself, looking up and out, commitment...

Billy Bob while Chin has open passing for Red and Blue group...you CAN NOT pass with out a point by and or blinker. So there is a problem...a HUGE problem when I watched Newman’s videos. I too run into unaware drivers it seems like at each DE when I should not. You are supposed to...espoused in Chin Red Group anticipate the point by and give the point by so the on coming car does not slow down.

Way too many driver...on public streets and especially on a race track at a DE Do not know how to use a mirror. There is hardly any situational awareness.

I am a racer too, an instructor, and I attend 30-40 events each year.

"Open passing" in HPDE does not mean "passing without a point by". It means you can pass anywhere on the track without restrictions (with exception of point by which is still required) and that the car being passed should be VERY aware, anticipate and never impede. It is one step below a true "open passing" environment. A point by is still required and the guy doing the passing either passes on the side pointed to or waves it off. It is his responsibility to do it safely, and the track is shared during the maneuver (both cars give room and both cars stay predictable). At some tracks additional restrictions are imposed to "open passing", such as "you cannot pass between T10-T11". It is simply meant to establish guidelines and safety protocols to encourage predictability, promote safety and discourage "racing", while still allowing drivers to run at close to a "race pace". And it works for the most part - but like anything else in the world we are dealing with human beings and nothing is perfect.

Hope that clears up your confusion. And you can shout from the rooftops that you don't like these rules, but you are pissing in the wind. That is the rule and it is a good one. Follow it, or don't show up. End. I can tell you that I have participated in Red Run group with CHIN for years (mostly to practice before an upcoming race) and with very few exceptions it works very, very well. Everyone is at race pace, everyone gives very early point-bys, is comfortable 2 wide anywhere and I am almost never impeded (with few exceptions).

And when this very simple to understand and simple to execute rule is not followed, the offending driver is spoken to very calmly and respectfully. No one is "tattle telling". There is always an opportunity to teach and to learn. If the offending driver continues to repeat his mistake (passing on the wrong side, passing without a point by, not giving point bys immediately, impeding etc), then that driver is likely to be demoted to a lower run group or asked to leave the track, as he has been deemed unsafe, unpredictable and/or an intentional rule breaker. Again, this is the rule, this is how it is enforced and if you don't like it then don't come (and then complain on Rennlist about it).

FBB, I don't know why you continue to post and argue in this thread when you don't do DEs. Your posts illustrate why racers do NOT always make good HPDE drivers - because you don't understand the differences between W2W racing and DE. You are supporting the argument why even accomplished racers NEED a check-out ride....

I'm not saying all this to criticize or argue with you, but your posts clearly show a lack of understanding of how HPDEs work (or should work). I race. And I do DE. They are not the same nor really similar. As Mordeth said, most HPDEs have clear guidelines on what is expected.

Tattle tale??? Uhh, no. Without intervention and further education, there would be very frequent trains of cars circulating at 40 mph around the entire track. Because there is no passing without point-bys. At vast majority of DEs. Again, it's not racing - you can't just go by.

PLNewman's videos are a different matter entirely. Not sure why they're not being handled privately with organizers or with the offending drivers in person (I recommend through organizers).

+1

FBB needs to do DEs himself to understand DEs. PLNewman has made similar posts in a prior thread and seems to have an agenda.

Thank you it does. Chin red Is not open passing. That makes a big difference. That makes my comments on Newman videos incorrect in a point by environment. Notice I only commented on the 2 red group videos. In California all the red run groups designated open passing means open passing. There are no restrictions such as your T10-T11 example and no point bys required. At least 4 organizations I have run with here...HPDE Open passing DOES mean passing without a point by anywhere on track.

My .02c The BMW in the Blue Group was probably waiting for a point by from the Vette after he got past the Vette he let you pass in a reasonable time frame for a Blue driver. Remember Blue can be People who just came from Novice to Inst.

The red group miater did not uphold the red group credo which is the passing car should not have to slow down as the point by is in such a timely fashion.

Peter

Open Passing IS NOT THE SAME as Extended Passing

OP is Racing

EP is DE

The problem is that there is NO common glossary nationwide or even across groups. I hear OP referenced in DE meetings, when they go on to describe EP. First time I ever heard of EP more than a decade ago was PCA DE. Few if any other groups used that term.

Really tough to know what people mean. That’s why the pre event materials and attending the Drivers Meeting is SO important. Because there’s time and space to fully explain it.

Having attended six different groups in the last ten weeks at VIR, some DE, Chin Track Days, some track operated open testing before SCCA (wheel-to-wheel competition), currently at David Murry, they are ALL using different words to describe mostly the same (with some critical differences) thing.

???? I have never heard of extended passing. That must be a local club thing. Open passing is certainly not racing. These 3 groups also have advanced red group and race group. They are different. For example...

1- From Speed Ventures biggest DE group in California their FAQ " We have different passing rules for different run groups. Our advanced run group offers open passing, with or without a point by.

2- Another Alfa Romeo 50+ year old group also in california FAQ "Advanced run group...Passing is allowed anywhere on the track. Point-by's, although appreciated, are not required. However, this is not a race and aggressive passing will not be tolerated."

3- From NASA HPDE a Nationwide group known to all. "Group Four (HPDE-4) This is only for the more experienced drivers. No passing restrictions, except those of good judgment and rules of the road etiquette, apply."

AT PCA DE's, regardless of the region (at least here in the Northeast), I have always (100% of the time) heard the use of EP refer to passing anywhere on track with a point by.

OP is something different, and I have heard that term refer to EP with Chin, HOD, etc.

When I run in black or red with a PCA region at a DE, the term I've always heard used is Extended Passing (EP). This means passing anywhere on the track (with restrictions if applicable), WITH A POINT BY. No exceptions.

That is the way I have been taught with regards to PCA DE's.

Other Private track orgs have used the term "Open Passing" to refer to exactly the same thing.

Again, this does not apply to racing, as I don't race (yet) as there are no point by's required when W2W racing. I have very little knowledge of racing terminology as I have not yet raced.

Yes Peter, the driver's meetings are critical so it can be explained to folks right before they go out on track. I am referring to a PCA DE here.

I believe Bruce is spot on. Expanded Passing was introduced by PCA a long time ago (Tremper could give us the exact date), but it's hardly a new term anymore. The change in nomenclature and vocab should be covered in the drivers meeting.

Great, informative post by an extremely able and knowledgeable driver with whom I've shared the track many times, so I'm not just blowing smoke.

I am not a racer or instructor, but like Anthony I too do 30+ track days a year and have done so for a long time......I run a low-hp car in advanced run groups like Chin's Red and as most of the cars are faster than mine I usually see them all and see exactly what they're doing (or not doing) out there. In my experience Chin's rule set is not overly complicated as described above, but a point IS necessary.....and one thing that Chin is a real stickler about is maintaining the flow of traffic; I once had it worded to me by one of the event managers in this way: "If someone's on your bumper, you've f***ed up". Simple, to-the-point, and it works. And if you do encounter anything out there that you deem egregious, a car number given to the event manager or one of his crew will fix things as previously noted, as I've personally experienced on a couple of occasions over the years.

Again, it's not a race, it's a track day, as in "Chin Track Days"....so just get your arm out there if need be, drive your brains out and you will most likely have a great day.

Gary

I also drive a low hp car in Chin red group (at Sebring anyhow) and find it’s an awesome experience. My left arm gets a workout, but I’m proud to say I’ve never been scolded for holding up the fast cars. :-)

Yep, it's a blast.....there's nothing like going side-by-side up the Esses at the Glen; that is, until the afterburners on the rocket next to me kick in :D

Thats because you know how to drive and have situation awareness...and no ego issues like some st de's have.

FBB, I just now caught back up to the thread and I initially felt the need to respond because I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you. However, after reading the responses that followed, most of the points that I would have made have already been stated by others. I would like to elaborate a little bit more. You mention coming in to the hot pits to get a gap and that is what we recommend for out yellow (new solo and instructed drivers) group. For blue group, it may be necessary occasionally. It should never be necessary in red group and, if it is, then there is a driver who is not paying attention and needs to be reminded of our track etiquette. Of course, even that does not work well if you start getting held up in T1 and there are 16 more turns before pit-in.

You also mention that videos can lie and I will give you that in some cases. For instance, in Newman's blue group video at Sebring. Normally, the first car in line (white BMW) has the first option to pass a slower car (white Vette). However, the Vette has just come onto the track from pit-out and does not know how fast the BMW is and the BMW does not get close enough to the Vette's bumper to show that he is faster and that he/she wants to pass (i.e. presenting yourself). And so, the BMW becomes the slow car holding up Newman and should have pointed Newman by before T3 especially since Newman closed so much distance in T1. So, first possible video lie is that the Vette is the guilty party here. Second possible video lie is that Newman says that the BMW finally passes the Vette in T13 without a point. Maybe yes, maybe no. I can't tell from the video whether the Vette finally gave a point-by or not (possibly at 1:30/1:31). The Vette appears to have been expecting the pass since it waited to turn-in. So, in this case, the video evidence is not totally conclusive. However, if brought to my attention, I would, respectfully and in non-confrontational manner, talk to the other drivers involved to get their side of the story.

The Barber video on the other hand is a slam dunk IMO. The Miata driver was definitely impeding the red group flow and should not be driving in red if he/she cannot follow the rules. Again, I would talk to that driver to find out what was going on and remind them of our track etiquette. And, for the Road Atlanta video, I would talk to the driver in the sports racer to get their side of the story since I cannot see which side Newman actually pointed. Right side pass is the normal convention coming under the bridge but, is it possible that there was a lazy point (i.e. arm starts out the window to the left and then slowly points over the roof to the right) and the sports racer was already committed to a left pass? I need the other side of the story and it could just end up being a he said-she said, agree to disagree with no action taken but, if it reported by multiple drivers, then maybe there is more of a case one way or the other.

And, I am in total agreement with you that "HPDE and racing are just driving on the track and all the rules we use in racing should apply...things like awareness, being predictable, holding your line, presenting yourself, looking up and out, commitment..." There is just a slight difference in the way that we apply those things in HPDE with the main difference being that we use point-bys when passing so that both drivers are on the same page and we, hopefully, avoid car-to-car contact.

Try a Chin event sometime and I think you will be surprised. We have lots of club and pro racers that drive at our events.

NKD,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The red miata guy was an instructor. I think those are the guys giving the checkout rides. I found out that PCA even does checkout rides for auto-X. Rules are rules! If you go someone's house and they ask you to take off your shoes you take your shoes off or you stay outside.

Off the OP's subject of Chin, but directly to the point of EXPANDED PASSING rules for PCA DE events. According to PCA, in Expanded Passing, when a point-by is given...the road splits in half, and each driver gets his portion of the turn.

"When entering a turn with another car, NO ONE OWNS THE TURN. Each driver is entitled to 50% of the track as if there was a white line through the center of the turn."

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about this at PCA events. Earlier this year, in the Red Run Group at Sebring, I gave a much faster GT3 a point-by and the car then drifted over into my lane and broadsided me. The driver said later that I "didn't back off and give him the corner" after pointing him by. To their credit, event organizers specifically addressed the finer points of Expanded Passing the following day during the instructor meeting and used it as a teaching moment.

Just a few weeks ago, in the Red Run Group at a Niagara PCA event at Watkins Glen, I gave a much faster car a point-by at Start/Finish. The car began to make the pass, then hung and hesitated. I left a full car width at the apex and pointed a second time. The driver continued to hesitate. Not long afterward, I was Black Flagged. The other driver, apparently, had come in and complained that I gave a point but didn't give up the corner. The Run Group was operating under PCA Expanded Passing rules. Imagine my surprise when I tracked down the other driver later and discovered that she was actually one of the club's HPDE Group leaders. She insisted that I was obliged to "back off after giving a point-by," and no amount of Rule Book explanation was going to convince her otherwise.

I agree that this rule often isn't explained clearly, and should be at every event.

I do think everyone gets through the corner faster if the car being passed lets off and tucks in behind the passing car, but I don't assume that will happen and don't get too annoyed if it doesn't.

Here are couple of passes I make where I am not able to see the car I am passing get back in my mirrors so I just assume we're side by side and give room.

One is at 5:45 and the other is a miata at 8:59 that actually takes back the next corner after pointing me by but we work it by the corner after.

Very nice drive.

KISS! One thing I learned is how confusing DE can be with some clubs. Are there too many solutions looking for a problem? I get POC wants this and PCA wants that NASA something else. It amazes me how DE groups complicate the simple act of track coexistence. It is so universally confusing that 1 driver, Newman, seems to have an endless supply of stories and videos perpetrated by the people who should make the least problems. If those rule makers and rule teachers can't get it right there is something wrong with the rule set.

I have raced SCCA all over the country and 4 other local racing bodies (non porsche) and open passing in about 1/2 dozen local DE groups (non-porsche) and about the only rule of the road I can think different is in the heat of battle SCCA says leave a car width and NASA says 3/4 car width. Racing rules are mostly common sense and those open passing DE sessions I have done are like race practice sessions. That consistency makes for effortless transition for wheel to wheel. We all see a bunch of colored flags and 99% we can all agree what they mean. DE should be like that.

There's some inconsistency in DE because there are no national standards and governing body, a lot of DE organizations, and each organization wants to do things its own way. Main reason why we have some consistency is that most people do events with more than one organization, so ideas and practices circulate and you get overlap across organizations.

Outside on having to run windows down in the USA...Chin does have it together with how a DE is run, Mark does an outstanding drivers meeting, they keep the run groups on time, they do good instructor/student pairings and it is easy to sign up and get information as a newbie.

If you want true open passing, run an event put on by 10/10ths Motorsports. In Advanced no points are required. People still often give them as a courtesy. What’s interesting is that despite having total ability to pass at will anytime, most people drive with incredible sportsmanship and respect. There are rarely on track issues with people abusing that extra freedom.

I did a DE event where no point-bys were required in the instructor group. It went smoothly, and people usually gave point-bys anyway. I think the format forces people to rise to the occasion by increasing their awareness and courtesy. I also did a Chin event at COTA where passing was allowed anywhere with a point-by in the student group; that also went smoothly.

When we do the opposite and treat drivers as though they're incompetent and untrustworthy, and set rules and establish a culture accordingly, drivers will tend to adjust their behavior towards that negative expectation also. I've done events where passing was allowed only in designated straights with a point-by in the instructor group, and the instructors lacked awareness and driving ability; maybe not a coincidence.

NASA TT is similar. It's open passing but since everyone once to get fastest lap times, we all work together. This includes point bys and speeding up through a section on our cool down so that the car passing us can complete it in a place that prevents them from having to lose anytime.

Great post! Agree on the treatment of drivers....

Agree 100%. With greater freedom comes greater responsibility. I think under the no point system it FORCES people to focus on situational awareness 100% of the time, which should be happening regardless. Most of us who run together know each other and have established trust over the years which makes it nice. Nobody wants to be the guy responsible for tearing up their friends Equipment. It’s hard to go to other events sometimes after having so much freedom!