What's up with Chin?
05-02-2019, 08:49 AM
#91
The Penguin King
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My post did not say that. I’m a licensed racer. My point is you never let your guard down once your visor goes down. No one is immune for a costly lapse in judgement. Hpde or racing physical laws of car on pavement is the same. Honestly racing with a group like Scca you got drivers with comp licenses, real tech inspections, high levels of car prep, medical care including acts on site, and even liability insurance as an additional insured. Hpde there is minimal to none of that. Cars have no cages yet speeds are triple digits in both. 200mph streetcars vs. 200mph full containment seat cage harness. Which is safer? Pick your poison. I race wheel to wheel because I’m a chicken.
When you get someone you don’t know with a racing resume signing up for a DE, you have to use the same sort of caution you use when dealing with others.
Oh, and I’m a racer.
05-02-2019, 11:02 AM
#92
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FBB, you’ve been around a long time, but the world is a BIG place.
There are many, MANY more drivers who attend and participate in NON-competitive track day and high-performance driver education events than race wheel tl
wheel.
The culture IS markedly different.
In responsible, practiced and polished track days and DE’s, the overriding goal in decision making is “if in doubt, DON’T,” and for about 99% of the time, that works.
In wheel to wheel racing, especially at the level you are competing, it’s “I’m going to MAKE something happen.” Depending on the weekend, the weather and the red mist present in the forecast, it doesn’t work out between 12%-24% of the time (according to my informal measure over three decades in SCCA, NASA, PCA CR, BMWCCA CR and historic racing), from scraped paint and loosened bumper covers to retubs being required.
It’s a mistake to confuse the culture and record of the two.
And there is a BIG difference in culture between track day providers and DE organizers, just like there is in racing organizations.
When I was a participant in pro racing, the series head SAID in the drivers meeting, “I want you to spice up the show, let’s show them some fireworks!”
Sheesh...
There are many, MANY more drivers who attend and participate in NON-competitive track day and high-performance driver education events than race wheel tl
wheel.
The culture IS markedly different.
In responsible, practiced and polished track days and DE’s, the overriding goal in decision making is “if in doubt, DON’T,” and for about 99% of the time, that works.
In wheel to wheel racing, especially at the level you are competing, it’s “I’m going to MAKE something happen.” Depending on the weekend, the weather and the red mist present in the forecast, it doesn’t work out between 12%-24% of the time (according to my informal measure over three decades in SCCA, NASA, PCA CR, BMWCCA CR and historic racing), from scraped paint and loosened bumper covers to retubs being required.
It’s a mistake to confuse the culture and record of the two.
And there is a BIG difference in culture between track day providers and DE organizers, just like there is in racing organizations.
When I was a participant in pro racing, the series head SAID in the drivers meeting, “I want you to spice up the show, let’s show them some fireworks!”
Sheesh...And, I think it's also clear that just because you have a comp license doesn't mean you are a good DE participant. There are many I race with that I wouldn't want in my run group LOL!!
05-02-2019, 11:08 AM
#93
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I remember a day last season (where it was a combined Race/DE weekend), when I followed a Spec Boxster around the track for 2 laps before he realized that he was out in an advanced DE Group and finally pointed me by.
Then he proceeded to point by the 8 or 9 cars that were stacked up behind me.
I guess he was testing out his car for the race and forgot he was running in a DE at the time.
He was apologetic afterwards when I went to talk to him. Very nice guy and very sorry that he forgot the point by's.
It happens....
05-02-2019, 11:39 AM
#94
I have not done HPDE in many years but I started there and made my way to racing like many others. If we want to be nit picky there is a difference between regimented HPDE ladder as in high performance drivers education and the wild west of HPDE high performance driving events. They are not the same. I don't know what Chin is.
Sure I agree. I wasn't trying to compare the crash data of racing to DE. I was curious if Chin has a lower incident rate than other DE organizations as a whole, if there are such stats. There is nothing like the "reported here" Chin level of driver vetting like it in the wild West where many organizations have self car tech self driver bio reporting and drivers just have at it. I have witnessed trackdays where a pickup truck with an open trailer was being used as a tow truck. Problems are solved often after problems occur.
Chin sounds like they want to prevent problems from happening. Does their system work better than others? Is the participant HPDE driver's insurance cheaper for a Chin event or Chin's insurance cost cheaper? That would be quite telling and perhaps even force other organizations to change, up their game, or dissappear. The bar is very low for track participation especially on off-days where a race track owner will collect your money any time he can. In fact I can rent two local tracks for myself with zero vetting and drive around in circles until I run out of gas. I can do that for 50% off if I share the cost with a buddy. We can get a few more friends and so on. Many DE organizations start out as a few guys wanting to go to the track and sign up others to get the costs down. Some don't progress much beyond that.
In responsible, practiced and polished track days and DE’s, the overriding goal in decision making is “if in doubt, DON’T,” and for about 99% of the time, that works.
In wheel to wheel racing, especially at the level you are competing, it’s “I’m going to MAKE something happen.”
It’s a mistake to confuse the culture and record of the two...
In wheel to wheel racing, especially at the level you are competing, it’s “I’m going to MAKE something happen.”
It’s a mistake to confuse the culture and record of the two...
Chin sounds like they want to prevent problems from happening. Does their system work better than others? Is the participant HPDE driver's insurance cheaper for a Chin event or Chin's insurance cost cheaper? That would be quite telling and perhaps even force other organizations to change, up their game, or dissappear. The bar is very low for track participation especially on off-days where a race track owner will collect your money any time he can. In fact I can rent two local tracks for myself with zero vetting and drive around in circles until I run out of gas. I can do that for 50% off if I share the cost with a buddy. We can get a few more friends and so on. Many DE organizations start out as a few guys wanting to go to the track and sign up others to get the costs down. Some don't progress much beyond that.
05-02-2019, 11:51 AM
#95
The Penguin King
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I have not done HPDE in many years but I started there and made my way to racing like many others. If we want to be nit picky there is a difference between regimented HPDE ladder as in high performance drivers education and the wild west of HPDE high performance driving events. They are not the same. I don't know what Chin is.
Sure I agree. I wasn't trying to compare the crash data of racing to DE. I was curious if Chin has a lower incident rate than other DE organizations as a whole, if there are such stats. There is nothing like the "reported here" Chin level of driver vetting like it in the wild West where many organizations have self car tech self driver bio reporting and drivers just have at it. I have witnessed trackdays where a pickup truck with an open trailer was being used as a tow truck. Problems are solved often after problems occur.
Chin sounds like they want to prevent problems from happening. Does their system work better than others? Is the participant HPDE driver's insurance cheaper for a Chin event or Chin's insurance cost cheaper? That would be quite telling and perhaps even force other organizations to change, up their game, or dissappear. The bar is very low for track participation especially on off-days where a race track owner will collect your money any time he can. In fact I can rent two local tracks for myself with zero vetting and drive around in circles until I run out of gas. I can do that for 50% off if I share the cost with a buddy. We can get a few more friends and so on. Many DE organizations start out as a few guys wanting to go to the track and sign up others to get the costs down. Some don't progress much beyond that.
Sure I agree. I wasn't trying to compare the crash data of racing to DE. I was curious if Chin has a lower incident rate than other DE organizations as a whole, if there are such stats. There is nothing like the "reported here" Chin level of driver vetting like it in the wild West where many organizations have self car tech self driver bio reporting and drivers just have at it. I have witnessed trackdays where a pickup truck with an open trailer was being used as a tow truck. Problems are solved often after problems occur.
Chin sounds like they want to prevent problems from happening. Does their system work better than others? Is the participant HPDE driver's insurance cheaper for a Chin event or Chin's insurance cost cheaper? That would be quite telling and perhaps even force other organizations to change, up their game, or dissappear. The bar is very low for track participation especially on off-days where a race track owner will collect your money any time he can. In fact I can rent two local tracks for myself with zero vetting and drive around in circles until I run out of gas. I can do that for 50% off if I share the cost with a buddy. We can get a few more friends and so on. Many DE organizations start out as a few guys wanting to go to the track and sign up others to get the costs down. Some don't progress much beyond that.
05-02-2019, 11:57 AM
#96
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^ DE organizations don't generally share their stats on crash rates, and many organizations don't even compile such stats.
Based on my experience paying attention to crash rates at events I've attended with Chin and other organizations, I would say that the crash rates at Chin events are lower (better) than average. I believe that's a result of the organizational culture, messages and tone of driver's meetings, vetting procedures and generally high standards, ample track time, morning warmup session, policy of drivers being bumped down if they're not performing at the level of their current run group (I've seen Chin drivers bump themselves down), etc.
Based on my experience paying attention to crash rates at events I've attended with Chin and other organizations, I would say that the crash rates at Chin events are lower (better) than average. I believe that's a result of the organizational culture, messages and tone of driver's meetings, vetting procedures and generally high standards, ample track time, morning warmup session, policy of drivers being bumped down if they're not performing at the level of their current run group (I've seen Chin drivers bump themselves down), etc.
05-02-2019, 12:06 PM
#97
Originally Posted by Manifold
^ DE organizations don't generally share their stats on crash rates, and many organizations don't even compile such stats.
Based on my experience paying attention to crash rates at events I've attended with Chin and other organizations, I would say that the crash rates at Chin events are lower (better) than average. I believe that's a result of the organizational culture, messages and tone of driver's meetings, vetting procedures and generally high standards, ample track time, morning warmup session, policy of drivers being bumped down if they're not performing at the level of their current run group (I've seen Chin drivers bump themselves down), etc.
Based on my experience paying attention to crash rates at events I've attended with Chin and other organizations, I would say that the crash rates at Chin events are lower (better) than average. I believe that's a result of the organizational culture, messages and tone of driver's meetings, vetting procedures and generally high standards, ample track time, morning warmup session, policy of drivers being bumped down if they're not performing at the level of their current run group (I've seen Chin drivers bump themselves down), etc.
05-02-2019, 12:18 PM
#98
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I would think Chin is lower. One thing they say at every drivers meeting is to remember to that the trophy that we take home is the car we brought and that we (the drivers) are what will make for a good event. Should go without saying but it always helps to be reminded.
05-02-2019, 01:25 PM
#99
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I added the italics and underlined because I don't think Mark takes much, if anything, for granted. Vigilant, consistent, decisive, forceful... Whatever you want to call it, I see even the most jaded drivers and pros look up in Mark's driver's meetings. Even if they've heard it a thousand times before.
More people could do this. They just choose not to...
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05-02-2019, 02:08 PM
#100
05-02-2019, 07:47 PM
#101
If you want a platinum track day, imho it’s DMTD. No question.
Last edited by Fumes; 05-02-2019 at 08:47 PM.
05-03-2019, 02:55 AM
#102
Drifting
Chin just seems to have the right balance/flow/courtesy/track time for what we need, and a great alternative to renting the entire track. I wouldn't even say we are "frequent flyers" of Chin Events (maybe twice in the last 3/4 years), but when time is needed at a certain track, the Chin Schedule is the first place checked....and we are usually late doing it which leads to begging/pleading/desperate emails to Mark and/or Jim.
05-04-2019, 01:34 AM
#103
Race Director
I mostly drive with Chin. Really like everything about them (except windows down rule...different thread though) However I appreciate how the run there events and how they classify drivers.
At 1 point in my de driving career which at that time years ago had only been Sebring and Barber I signed up for Homestead as my usual advanced solo. They put me down in the next lower class but after a couple sessions I picked up the track well...did a very quick check out and moved to my advanced solo class.
I really appreciate the way Mark Hicks did this. Works great for many reasons.
At 1 point in my de driving career which at that time years ago had only been Sebring and Barber I signed up for Homestead as my usual advanced solo. They put me down in the next lower class but after a couple sessions I picked up the track well...did a very quick check out and moved to my advanced solo class.
I really appreciate the way Mark Hicks did this. Works great for many reasons.
05-04-2019, 02:06 PM
#104
It's great your experience has been different in your region, but for testing purposes (for us) PCA DEs have literally been a waste of time (historically). Imagine being asked to slow down in RED. DMTD can surely be good - and it also can't.
Chin just seems to have the right balance/flow/courtesy/track time for what we need, and a great alternative to renting the entire track. I wouldn't even say we are "frequent flyers" of Chin Events (maybe twice in the last 3/4 years), but when time is needed at a certain track, the Chin Schedule is the first place checked....and we are usually late doing it which leads to begging/pleading/desperate emails to Mark and/or Jim.
Chin just seems to have the right balance/flow/courtesy/track time for what we need, and a great alternative to renting the entire track. I wouldn't even say we are "frequent flyers" of Chin Events (maybe twice in the last 3/4 years), but when time is needed at a certain track, the Chin Schedule is the first place checked....and we are usually late doing it which leads to begging/pleading/desperate emails to Mark and/or Jim.
I would agree. An HPDE is a terrible place for a racing team to do a test'n'tune for cup cars. I'm not sure how to put an event that offer super cheap track time and insurance for a race team.
Last edited by ShakeNBake; 05-04-2019 at 02:25 PM.
05-04-2019, 04:09 PM
#105
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Why would a racing team be TESTING at a "high performance drivers EDUCATION" event?
I would agree. An HPDE is a terrible place for a racing team to do a test'n'tune for cup cars. I'm not sure how to put an event that offer super cheap track time and insurance for a race team.
I would agree. An HPDE is a terrible place for a racing team to do a test'n'tune for cup cars. I'm not sure how to put an event that offer super cheap track time and insurance for a race team.