Do people race base model Porsches?
04-19-2019, 02:55 PM
#16
Originally Posted by wisstx
Porsche puts so much effort and engineering into all their cars and a higher level into the sports car lines, I wonder if anyone that owns a base model races them? When I say race I am referring to closed track racing. It seems with a lower amount of horsepower and such, some different driving skills could be necessary.
The base models do not contain many of the racing attributes which may cause it to handle in a less than desired manner on a track. This would cause a driver of a high performance Porsche to rethink track strategy. Possibly?
I think of it like running donkeys at an equestrian event. They can do it, but the rider needs to understand the capabilities of the horse. No disrespect to donkeys or base model Porsches!
The base models do not contain many of the racing attributes which may cause it to handle in a less than desired manner on a track. This would cause a driver of a high performance Porsche to rethink track strategy. Possibly?
I think of it like running donkeys at an equestrian event. They can do it, but the rider needs to understand the capabilities of the horse. No disrespect to donkeys or base model Porsches!
What is an example of a base model vs a higher performance Porsche?
I just want to make sure I fully understand your question before I answer.
04-19-2019, 03:00 PM
#17
"Ols school"...
Luigi, I respectively disagree being an "old school " guy. I helped build race cars in the 1970's, no ABS, no traction control, no data acquisition; just a stop watch, analog air pressure guage, and Goodyear Tech's measured tire temperatures.
Our home-bred 1975 Monza with Warren Agor as owner-driver turned a 56 sec lap time at Lime Rock when the track surface in turns 1 and 2 were rough.
To me any car modified for competitive racing with no "nannies" is the "Real Race Car," the driver controls the full results and must have excellent car control to be competitive.
On the 1975 Memorial Day weekend, the 56 sec lap time was fourth on the grid.
Our home-bred 1975 Monza with Warren Agor as owner-driver turned a 56 sec lap time at Lime Rock when the track surface in turns 1 and 2 were rough.
To me any car modified for competitive racing with no "nannies" is the "Real Race Car," the driver controls the full results and must have excellent car control to be competitive.
On the 1975 Memorial Day weekend, the 56 sec lap time was fourth on the grid.
Warren's 56 sec lap must have been in practice. In the first 100 mile heat at Lime Rock in '75, Sam Posey qualified 4th in a BMW. Warren was 18th on the grid and finished 12th. I qualified 8th and finished 13th.
In the 100 mile final, Warren started 12th and finished 10th. I started 13th and finished 7th.
Yes, we're "Old school", but these modern days are cool also... I just started building another 1974 Group 4 3.0 RSR. The RSR doesn't have any nannies, but I might need one to help me get in it.
04-19-2019, 03:56 PM
#18
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Luigi, I respectively disagree being an "old school " guy. I helped build race cars in the 1970's, no ABS, no traction control, no data acquisition; just a stop watch, analog air pressure guage, and Goodyear Tech's measured tire temperatures.
Our home-bred 1975 Monza with Warren Agor as owner-driver turned a 56 sec lap time at Lime Rock when the track surface in turns 1 and 2 were rough.
To me any car modified for competitive racing with no "nannies" is the "Real Race Car," the driver controls the full results and must have excellent car control to be competitive.
On the 1975 Memorial Day weekend, the 56 sec lap time was fourth on the grid.
Our home-bred 1975 Monza with Warren Agor as owner-driver turned a 56 sec lap time at Lime Rock when the track surface in turns 1 and 2 were rough.
To me any car modified for competitive racing with no "nannies" is the "Real Race Car," the driver controls the full results and must have excellent car control to be competitive.
On the 1975 Memorial Day weekend, the 56 sec lap time was fourth on the grid.
My point was that there is not much difference between the street cars and what we refer to as "race cars" in PCA racing as when they are compared to purpose built race cars. You could spend a little but of money, cut the cage out of my car, and it could be a street car again. You really can't make a purpose built race car into a street car so my point is that street cars and club racing cars are very similar in terms of baseline DNA.
No argument that old school race cars are "more real" than modern race cars. I learned to drive on track in my 944 so I am there with you.
Nannies or no nannies, as long as everyone on the grid is driving similar equipment under the rules, they're driving a "real race car". I drove a modern Porsche race car full of nannies once and it was just as much of a challenge as driving my old 1974 RSR.
Warren's 56 sec lap must have been in practice. In the first 100 mile heat at Lime Rock in '75, Sam Posey qualified 4th in a BMW. Warren was 18th on the grid and finished 12th. I qualified 8th and finished 13th.
In the 100 mile final, Warren started 12th and finished 10th. I started 13th and finished 7th.
Yes, we're "Old school", but these modern days are cool also... I just started building another 1974 Group 4 3.0 RSR. The RSR doesn't have any nannies, but I might need one to help me get in it.
Warren's 56 sec lap must have been in practice. In the first 100 mile heat at Lime Rock in '75, Sam Posey qualified 4th in a BMW. Warren was 18th on the grid and finished 12th. I qualified 8th and finished 13th.
In the 100 mile final, Warren started 12th and finished 10th. I started 13th and finished 7th.
Yes, we're "Old school", but these modern days are cool also... I just started building another 1974 Group 4 3.0 RSR. The RSR doesn't have any nannies, but I might need one to help me get in it.
I hope one day to emulate Frank and drive a modern car, as well as a vintage car, in club racing. There looks to be tons of different types of fun in the two "types" of racing.
04-19-2019, 08:17 PM
#19
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OP here. By “racing” I mean anything that is not involving cars in a public setting. HPDE, sure.
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
04-19-2019, 08:18 PM
#20
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Rephrased Original Question
OP here. By “racing” I mean anything that is not involving cars in a public setting. HPDE, sure.
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
04-19-2019, 08:33 PM
#22
Originally Posted by wisstx
OP here. By “racing” I mean anything that is not involving cars in a public setting. HPDE, sure.
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
If we talk about a base carrera against an S or GTS I am sure there would be some differences but Porsche's our of the box seem to be pretty good track cars.
I have tracked a 997.2 C2S and a 991 C2. Both pretty much base cars and I managed to get a couple of point bys.
Neither was a fast as my fully track prepped E46M3.
You didn't happen to change your user name from sugarwood?
04-19-2019, 08:59 PM
#23
Banned
OP here. By “racing” I mean anything that is not involving cars in a public setting. HPDE, sure.
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
I am am wondering what will happen (damage?) to the cars that are not engineered two do both racing and commuting.
Outside of tires and brakes, do base models take more of a “beating” compared to GTS or similar models because they don’t have the performance parts? Another way of asking the question: Two Cayennes, one is a base, one is a GTS. Driven by the same driver on the same course, over time, would there be more repairs to the base model?
Every Porsche is pretty much track-ready as it comes stock from the factory -- much more so than any other brand. Some may benefit from few minor mods for example to improve cooling, oiling, or braking but are by no means necessary. Also there is a world of difference between "racing" in Green (beginner) run group at DE and actually racing at the pointy end of the field in a competitive racing series. Maintenance matters too. A "base" car that has been "raced" yet regularly maintained will fare far better than a "non-base" car that has been raced and put away wet with minimal maintenance. Many factors at play here. What is the reason/point of your question?
04-20-2019, 09:08 AM
#24
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Nannies or no nannies, as long as everyone on the grid is driving similar equipment under the rules, they're driving a "real race car". I drove a modern Porsche race car full of nannies once and it was just as much of a challenge as driving my old 1974 RSR.
Warren's 56 sec lap must have been in practice. In the first 100 mile heat at Lime Rock in '75, Sam Posey qualified 4th in a BMW. Warren was 18th on the grid and finished 12th. I qualified 8th and finished 13th.
In the 100 mile final, Warren started 12th and finished 10th. I started 13th and finished 7th.
Yes, we're "Old school", but these modern days are cool also... I just started building another 1974 Group 4 3.0 RSR. The RSR doesn't have any nannies, but I might need one to help me get in it.
Warren's 56 sec lap must have been in practice. In the first 100 mile heat at Lime Rock in '75, Sam Posey qualified 4th in a BMW. Warren was 18th on the grid and finished 12th. I qualified 8th and finished 13th.
In the 100 mile final, Warren started 12th and finished 10th. I started 13th and finished 7th.
Yes, we're "Old school", but these modern days are cool also... I just started building another 1974 Group 4 3.0 RSR. The RSR doesn't have any nannies, but I might need one to help me get in it.
I appreciate the correction. My memory was a little suspect. With a clear memory, in 1975 we had engine issues and we were on the grid as you said. The 56 sec time was set in qualifying in 1976 with the 1975 Monza, the car color was blue. IMSA thought we had enriched fuel and wanted to take a fuel sample. Then they backed down.
G, I can climb into my 944, modified the driver side roll cage to be NASCAR style with tubing bent into the door cavity, no interior door panel. I also do aerobic dance and strength training and changed my diet to high protein, low carb, with portion control. This help me loose 15 lbs.
Please keep us posted on your RSR build.
Tom
04-20-2019, 10:03 AM
#25
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The Cayenne is the top selling Porsche and it comes in versions with the large/fast engines. This makes me pause a bit because like you, it does NOT seem like a track car compared to other Porsche models; but they outfit it like it is.
Im not sure of the reasoning in the USA to buy a Cayenne with maxed out engine, upgraded brakes, etc. maybe an S, okay. But a Turbo S Cayenne? As another poster stated: not many Cayennes on the tracks these days...
My original question was answered a few posts ago. Proper care and maintenance will make all the difference even more so than the trim line...
Im not sure of the reasoning in the USA to buy a Cayenne with maxed out engine, upgraded brakes, etc. maybe an S, okay. But a Turbo S Cayenne? As another poster stated: not many Cayennes on the tracks these days...
My original question was answered a few posts ago. Proper care and maintenance will make all the difference even more so than the trim line...
04-20-2019, 09:38 PM
#27
OP: FWIW I drive a "base" Mini Cooper (non-super/turbocharged) that's bone-stock from the factory with the only mods being race pads in front (rear stock), Motul and wider RE71Rs. Car has 102k miles with approx. 80k of that being to/on/home from the track (I don't trailer the car). It has been bulletproof with the only major repair being a new clutch installed last year. Is it fast? No. Is it fun? Ridiculously so, and very competent within the scope of its capabilities of balance, cornering and stopping. Of course, the driver sucks or it would be that much better!
Whether it be "base" or not, be fastidious with maintenance as mentioned above. Listen to and feel the car. If something doesn't feel or sound right FIX IT RIGHT AWAY! Don't wait for a potentially small repair to possibly become huge, or worse, unsafe.
Gary
04-20-2019, 11:34 PM
#28
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Okay... let me in on the super wood joke.
Not sugar wood but I’m curious to what questions he/she asked in the past!
Im going to have to do a search!
I bought a base 2016 cayenne as my first ever Porsche. Very happy with the car and it’s base capabilities. Here in Texas, in Dallas, there’s not much use for me with a gts or turbo s. (Lack of driving skills, it could get away from me).
I’m interested in possibly upgrading rotors and brakes but don’t want to cause issues as Porsche owners seem to keep the cars pure with no after market parts. True? Just from what I read it appears that way. It makes sense that if a car is well engineered you can loose some of that “engineering” when you introduce aftermarket parts.
Im going to have to do a search!
I bought a base 2016 cayenne as my first ever Porsche. Very happy with the car and it’s base capabilities. Here in Texas, in Dallas, there’s not much use for me with a gts or turbo s. (Lack of driving skills, it could get away from me).
I’m interested in possibly upgrading rotors and brakes but don’t want to cause issues as Porsche owners seem to keep the cars pure with no after market parts. True? Just from what I read it appears that way. It makes sense that if a car is well engineered you can loose some of that “engineering” when you introduce aftermarket parts.
04-21-2019, 01:09 AM
#30
IMSA Lime Rock 100 miles
Hi G,
I appreciate the correction. My memory was a little suspect. With a clear memory, in 1975 we had engine issues and we were on the grid as you said. The 56 sec time was set in qualifying in 1976 with the 1975 Monza, the car color was blue. IMSA thought we had enriched fuel and wanted to take a fuel sample. Then they backed down.
G, I can climb into my 944, modified the driver side roll cage to be NASCAR style with tubing bent into the door cavity, no interior door panel. I also do aerobic dance and strength training and changed my diet to high protein, low carb, with portion control. This help me loose 15 lbs.
Please keep us posted on your RSR build.
Tom
I appreciate the correction. My memory was a little suspect. With a clear memory, in 1975 we had engine issues and we were on the grid as you said. The 56 sec time was set in qualifying in 1976 with the 1975 Monza, the car color was blue. IMSA thought we had enriched fuel and wanted to take a fuel sample. Then they backed down.
G, I can climb into my 944, modified the driver side roll cage to be NASCAR style with tubing bent into the door cavity, no interior door panel. I also do aerobic dance and strength training and changed my diet to high protein, low carb, with portion control. This help me loose 15 lbs.
Please keep us posted on your RSR build.
Tom
In 1976 Warren qualified 6th for the final. There was just one 100 mile race that year and two short qualifying heats, so Warren must have come in 3rd in his heat. Don't know how they lined us up for the heats, or how we qualified for those.
In my heat I came in 2nd behind Gregg's BMW, so that put me 4th on the final grid, behind Keyser's Monza, Gregg's BMW, Holbert's Monza, in back of me, Busby and Warren. My little RSR looked out of place with all those Monzas and the BMW. Warren's car was fast for sure. https://www.racingsportscars.com/gri...976-05-31.html
The 100 mile final turned out OK !! https://www.racingsportscars.com/res...976-05-31.html
I'll try to post photos of the RSR build once in a while. It's going to look like it did at Sebring in '77.
Best regards,
G