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Brake fluid and pads

 
Old 03-11-2019, 07:08 PM
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Surfndav
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Default Brake fluid and pads

Iíve been trying to do my research, and I found so many differing opinions.
I have a 2009 Cayman S and I tracked it for the first time this weekend. I Kinda Sorta cooked the brake fluid. And lost the pedal. Fortunately it gave me some warning and got very squishy before it went out, so I was going slow. At any rate, my instructor told me that I should get Motul 600 brake fluid, and new pads. I did continue for two more sessions once my brakes cooled down, and kept things toned down just a bit.
So I ordered from sun coast parts, Motul 660 which was what they had available. And for pads I just went with the stock Porsche pads. I plan to purchase another set of performance pads and switch them out for track days. But right now the pads on the car are less than halfway. I just want to feel safe.
My question is is the Motul 660 a good performance brake fluid? It should be coming sometime this week and I plan to do a brake flush, but if there something more highly recommended I could change that.
Also when it comes time for performance pads which will be used for track days only, whatís the best bang for buck. I am new to performance driving, and would like something that has more bite than the stock pads, but I donít feel I need the best of the best at this time. There are so many choices out there Iím confused. Thanks in advance
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:13 PM
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991carreradriver
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You will be fine with the Motul 660 and performance pads. Admitting that folks have different opinions, I personally don't like driving on pads at the start of an event at 50%. They conduct too much heat to the fluid after they wear down below 50%.

Personally, I prefer the Castrol SRF over Motul 660 but that just my preference. Other should chime in with their views to balance the discussion.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:07 PM
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I have a similar car, 09 Boxster PDK w/Sport/Sport+ with 14 track days but only 35K miles, so limited experience. I was at Summit Point, where were you? What transmission? I use ATE 200. SFR is expensive. How old was the brake fluid that gave you the soft pedal? I run Hawk DTC 60s on the front and OEM on the rear. You can get the Hawks for about $180 for my car. I put back the OEM pads for street use if I plan on much street driving between events. The race pads squeak loudly. Excellent Pelican Part YouTube on doing our brakes. We had to remove the calipers to get out the brake dampeners. One of them broke in the brake cylinder (still there). We did not replace them. PCA Potomac requires a brake flush every six months with racing fluid and 90 days with OEM fluid. I think that's overkill for our cars. SCCA and NASA do not. You can buy a $10 brake fluid tester (moisture %) from Amazon. I understand if you are running a GT3 or other super high horsepower car with six piston brake calipers frequent brake flushes are needed. I've never had a brake issue with ATE 200 and Hawks. I did learn you need to tie back the brake sensors or the race pad heat will start to melt the sensors long before you get rotor contact. Tape your wheel weights with the shiny aluminum duct tape, not "duck" tape. I didn't throw a wheel weight, but one had moved and came off in my hand. Apparently it is common practice to tape the weights. Buy some Wheel Wax. The racing pads are super dusty and will harden on the wheels. I must not have done a good job waxing the left front because I have multiple harden brake spots. I bought the BMW wheel cleaner as recommended from RL. It works, but still work. Get a second tow hook for the rear. Its screws in under the rear license plate,which I remove. Front plate is on a tow hook bracket. If you ever need towed and you don't have a tow hook who knows where they will hook up. I got a used one for $20 from DC Automotive. It needs to be a 987.2 tow hook to have the right length threads. Tires will quickly become the next need. Michelin PS4S from Tire Rack are a popular choice. I recommend track day insurance from Hagerty or Lockton. About $200 a weekend. As you can tell this is addictive, but not super expensive if you drive to and back with the same car and tires.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:09 PM
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PS Check Motorsportreg.com for events.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:32 PM
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All great advice above.. I'm not a huge fan of super expensive fluid... The real big difference is wet boing point. Fresh ATE is plenty good, you just need to flush it more often (every event) the upside is it forces you to be hands on with the brakes before every event.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:23 PM
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Every event is excessive. Don't need to hear the whole "its hygroscopic, crystals and corrosion" bit. PCA Potomac requires every six months, which I think is excessive for 987.2s. You can buy a $10 brake fluid tester from Amazon to check the moisture if you want to feel safety. Better yet buy racing seats, a harness and HANS. if your a GT3 or Cup car its a different story but then you need a 420 lb-ft 5 ft handled torque wrench.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:24 PM
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Default brake fluid, pads

I too have a 2009 Cayman S. The prior owner recommended Motul 600, and Performance Friction pads. I've stayed with those, with good results. He also recommended bleeding frequently, which I've done after every track weekend. Overkill, perhaps? Never any brake fade!
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Surfndav View Post
Iíve been trying to do my research, and I found so many differing opinions.
I have a 2009 Cayman S and I tracked it for the first time this weekend. I Kinda Sorta cooked the brake fluid. And lost the pedal. Fortunately it gave me some warning and got very squishy before it went out, so I was going slow. At any rate, my instructor told me that I should get Motul 600 brake fluid, and new pads. I did continue for two more sessions once my brakes cooled down, and kept things toned down just a bit.
So I ordered from sun coast parts, Motul 660 which was what they had available. And for pads I just went with the stock Porsche pads. I plan to purchase another set of performance pads and switch them out for track days. But right now the pads on the car are less than halfway. I just want to feel safe.
My question is is the Motul 660 a good performance brake fluid? It should be coming sometime this week and I plan to do a brake flush, but if there something more highly recommended I could change that.
Also when it comes time for performance pads which will be used for track days only, whatís the best bang for buck. I am new to performance driving, and would like something that has more bite than the stock pads, but I donít feel I need the best of the best at this time. There are so many choices out there Iím confused. Thanks in advance
Here is a good review of a wide range of brake fluids. It has a lot of good information to help you make an informed decision.

https://thebuildjournal.com/tech-gui...view-analysis/
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:37 PM
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It always amazes me when people spend 70-110k on a car, want to track it, and want to save a few bucks on fluid, rotors and pads etc. Your life is on the line out there on the track.
For me, it's Castrol React SRF Racing brake fluid, two piece PF rotors, cryo treated, and PF pads. Never any issues so far.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:42 PM
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Bleeding and flushing are different. If you don't have any soft pedal symptoms not sure why you need to bleed, but doesn't hurt. Flushing replaces all (actually most) of the brake fluid. I understand that the brakes are the last system on the car you want to fail, but as an engineer some of this has no scientific bases just anecdotal reasons and more often is better. Again for our level of Pcars at a weekend DE. I've often thought about a 981, but paying another $30K (or more) and having to remove the calipers to change front pads. While I'd love an "S" I haven't found they are significantly quicker on the track but I'm guessing that's driver experience and the advantage of my PDK Sport+.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitc2246 View Post
I have a similar car, 09 Boxster PDK w/Sport/Sport+ with 14 track days but only 35K miles, so limited experience. I was at Summit Point, where were you? What transmission? I use ATE 200. SFR is expensive. How old was the brake fluid that gave you the soft pedal? I run Hawk DTC 60s on the front and OEM on the rear. You can get the Hawks for about $180 for my car. I put back the OEM pads for street use if I plan on much street driving between events. The race pads squeak loudly. Excellent Pelican Part YouTube on doing our brakes. We had to remove the calipers to get out the brake dampeners. One of them broke in the brake cylinder (still there). We did not replace them. PCA Potomac requires a brake flush every six months with racing fluid and 90 days with OEM fluid. I think that's overkill for our cars. SCCA and NASA do not. You can buy a $10 brake fluid tester (moisture %) from Amazon. I understand if you are running a GT3 or other super high horsepower car with six piston brake calipers frequent brake flushes are needed. I've never had a brake issue with ATE 200 and Hawks. I did learn you need to tie back the brake sensors or the race pad heat will start to melt the sensors long before you get rotor contact. Tape your wheel weights with the shiny aluminum duct tape, not "duck" tape. I didn't throw a wheel weight, but one had moved and came off in my hand. Apparently it is common practice to tape the weights. Buy some Wheel Wax. The racing pads are super dusty and will harden on the wheels. I must not have done a good job waxing the left front because I have multiple harden brake spots. I bought the BMW wheel cleaner as recommended from RL. It works, but still work. Get a second tow hook for the rear. Its screws in under the rear license plate,which I remove. Front plate is on a tow hook bracket. If you ever need towed and you don't have a tow hook who knows where they will hook up. I got a used one for $20 from DC Automotive. It needs to be a 987.2 tow hook to have the right length threads. Tires will quickly become the next need. Michelin PS4S from Tire Rack are a popular choice. I recommend track day insurance from Hagerty or Lockton. About $200 a weekend. As you can tell this is addictive, but not super expensive if you drive to and back with the same car and tires.
Thanks, lots of good info. I'm in Arizona, the track day was at Arizona Motorsports Park for PCA DE day. My car is an S, has PDK and Sport Chrono, I bought it last December with 41K miles. It now has 43,000. It's not my daily, but I have been having a lot of fun. My wife also drives the car, she did a track day in February at Bondurant. She does not like brake noise otherwise I would run the performance pads every day. My tires are new (1500 miles now), Michelin Pilot Sport 2's, they seemed very grippy. I have 2 more track weekends coming up with ProAutoSports, the first is at Wild Horse Pass in April, and then Indy Motorsport Ranch in May. After that, I plan to sit out the summer and maybe buy a dedicated set of track wheels and tires. Also, look into some minor suspension upgrades, camber plates or whatever they are. That's a whole nother thread though.
I really had the time of my life on the track, and my wife is very jazzed with her track day as well. So much to learn. The good thing about ProAutoSports is their track events mostly cover the weekend. We plan to trade off track days.

Thanks for all the help!
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bubba928 View Post
It always amazes me when people spend 70-110k on a car, want to track it, and want to save a few bucks on fluid, rotors and pads etc. Your life is on the line out there on the track.
For me, it's Castrol React SRF Racing brake fluid, two piece PF rotors, cryo treated, and PF pads. Never any issues so far.
I only spent 30K on my car, and I'm new. There are lots of expenses and I'd like to have the most fun while being safe. The economics are always important and I plan to upgrade as I develop my skill level. I am fortunate that I have the income to support a hobby such as this, I'm learning as I go. I also will be doing the bulk of the maintenance myself, not for economic reasons, but to be hands on. I have met many people in the PCA that use their street cars for track days. I've also met several people that have dedicated track cars. Right now I want to have this car be a dual purpose car. If this track hobby keeps getting bigger and bigger I may make this a dedicated track car and then get myself another car for GT duties. I plan to have fun finding out where this goes.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitc2246 View Post
Bleeding and flushing are different. If you don't have any soft pedal symptoms not sure why you need to bleed, but doesn't hurt. Flushing replaces all (actually most) of the brake fluid. I understand that the brakes are the last system on the car you want to fail, but as an engineer some of this has no scientific bases just anecdotal reasons and more often is better. Again for our level of Pcars at a weekend DE. I've often thought about a 981, but paying another $30K (or more) and having to remove the calipers to change front pads. While I'd love an "S" I haven't found they are significantly quicker on the track but I'm guessing that's driver experience and the advantage of my PDK Sport+.
I plan to do a flush. I have a pressure tank, and youtube, so I'm nearly an expert.....That's a joke.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:25 PM
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Good to hear. Are your instructors letting you use Sport+? Some of my first PCA instructors didn't want me to use. Later I didn't ask permission. One changed his attitude after driving in Sport+. Promoted to Intermediate this weekend with SCCA and for the NASA next month. Should be promoted to Blue in PCA next event. Makes registration easier and while we were all there once, no more first timers who can't do point byes. My goal is to get to White in another year. I'm guessing your days were warmer. We were in the mid-40's on Saturday, but got to almost 70 Sunday afternoon. Actually had snow on the grass driving in on Saturday morning. Next event is at Summit Point with NASA April 13-14. Then have three more at Summit Point with PCA Potomac. I really love the Summit Point Main, not Jefferson or Shenandoah, track. There are some really good YouTubes for the track. There's a SCCA YouTube of the Time Trial from this Sunday my son just sent me. Need to get the PDK clutch fluid and differential changed in May. Over due on the clutch fluid by time but not miles. Another member says he does his PDK fluids after 15 track days. Strictly a heat issue. Talking with my son and he said I need to get a negative camber track setting for my front. He said it will save the edges of the front tires and greatly improve the turn-in and "S" time for the car. He said adjustable control arms are better than camber plates. VIR in southern VA is on my track wishlist, but the Labor Day event is three days plus two more driving. I have to install my roll bar extender to run VIR. Assume you have a hauler (and driver) for the track wheels and tires. There's a retired engineer in Texas that sells a hitch conversion kit for 987.2s. One of our PCA Potomac members has it and pulls his track wheels, tires and a big tool box.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bubba928 View Post
It always amazes me when people spend 70-110k on a car, want to track it, and want to save a few bucks on fluid, rotors and pads etc. Your life is on the line out there on the track.
For me, it's Castrol React SRF Racing brake fluid, two piece PF rotors, cryo treated, and PF pads. Never any issues so far.
Bubba, first its now a $25K car and $35K when I bought it used. I never said anything about saving money on rotors and pads nor doing anything unsafe. This is a weekend DE, not a race. Otherwise we'd all need seats, harnesses and a HANS. I have two engineering degrees and I get the whole brake fluid boiling and brake failure issue. That's why I use racing brake fluid, a dedicated track rotor and racing pads. No one has given me a solid scientific reason why a 987.2 that weighs 3,000 lbs needs a six month brake fluid flush other than its the same PCA Potomac rule for ALL Porsches for DEs. What you have given is another typical anecdotal answer to the question why six months and not five, seven, ten or a year. Moisture in the brake fluid is why we change it and the higher boiling point for racing fluid. I discussed with a Safety Chair who agreed testing for moisture, $10 tester from Amazon, in his opinion was an acceptable alternative after six months, but too logistically difficult to do each morning at Tech. Result the six month racing brake fluid flush for everyone is the policy. SCCA and NASA use annual or the vehicle recommended schedule. With just 14 track days I have limited experience, but please don't talk down to me, imply I'm cheap or doing something unsafe. You are perfectly entitled to buy the best available for your car and change your fluids as often as you want, but that doesn't make the rest of us any less or wrong. Wishing you the Best.
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