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I only spent 30K on my car, and I'm new. There are lots of expenses and I'd like to have the most fun while being safe. The economics are always important and I plan to upgrade as I develop my skill level. I am fortunate that I have the income to support a hobby such as this, I'm learning as I go. I also will be doing the bulk of the maintenance myself, not for economic reasons, but to be hands on. I have met many people in the PCA that use their street cars for track days. I've also met several people that have dedicated track cars. Right now I want to have this car be a dual purpose car. If this track hobby keeps getting bigger and bigger I may make this a dedicated track car and then get myself another car for GT duties. I plan to have fun finding out where this goes.
Oh boy. You should have started out with a tow vehicle, stacking trailer and car with full cage and fire suppression. You definitely need two car just in case you ball up the first. Anything less is just asking for it. Really, just stay off the track because it's too dangerous. Have you ever tried sim racing? LOL
FYI - I use SRF and PFC 08 Pads. Half the fun is figuring out what you like and what works for you and the car you drive.
Here's some information on brake fluid boiling points. First is a chart showing how Shell's various fluids react to water content. Second, a table of boiling points for various fluids.
I've superimposed on that the dry and wet boiling points of SRF, RBF600, and ATE200. Since I don't have access to how those fluids react between dry and "wet", I've just drawn straight lines. No doubt they likely curve just like the Shell fluids.
Wet is defined as 3.7% water, and the yellow line depicts that on the graph.
Cost per liter for the three fluids is:
SRF -- $60
RBF600 -- $34
ATE200 -- $17
If you figure in how frequently you will need to change each of these fluids (ie ATE much more often than RBF or SRF) the cost differential diminishes considerably. If you are flushing them at the same service interval ATE saves you $43 per flush. Given what you spend on tires, fuel, pads, registration fees, hotel room, meals,... not to mention your car, the differential is pretty small. Boiling your brake fluid is not a particularly fun thing to do.
Here's some information on brake fluid boiling points. First is a chart showing how Shell's various fluids react to water content. Second, a table of boiling points for various fluids.
I've superimposed on that the dry and wet boiling points of SRF, RBF600, and ATE200. Since I don't have access to how those fluids react between dry and "wet", I've just drawn straight lines. No doubt they likely curve just like the Shell fluids.
Wet is defined as 3.7% water, and the yellow line depicts that on the graph.
Cost per liter for the three fluids is:
SRF -- $60
RBF600 -- $34
ATE200 -- $17
If you figure in how frequently you will need to change each of these fluids (ie ATE much more often than RBF or SRF) the cost differential diminishes considerably. If you are flushing them at the same service interval ATE saves you $43 per flush. Given what you spend on tires, fuel, pads, registration fees, hotel room, meals,... not to mention your car, the differential is pretty small. Boiling your brake fluid is not a particularly fun thing to do.
This. For me (at around 20 track days/year) it's easier to put in SRF once at the beginning of the season and not think about it again... BTW, FCPEuro.com will provide free lifetime replacements of SRF (no affiliation). https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/dot...-castrol-12512
No one has given me a solid scientific reason why a 987.2 that weighs 3,000 lbs needs a six month brake fluid flush other than its the same PCA Potomac rule for ALL Porsches for DEs. :
Feel free to experiment and report back. I've had fluid boil and didn't like the experience (fluid was approx 6 months old). I switched to Motul 600 and now flush at least 500ml of through the system before any event. I'm happy doing it as I don't worry about the fluid boiling and haven't had any problems since. Overly cautious - probably. Worth the $15 and 20 mins involved? For me, yes. It's my hobby and I'm happy doing it. YMMV etc.
This. For me (at around 20 track days/year) it's easier to put in SRF once at the beginning of the season and not think about it again... BTW, FCPEuro.com will provide free lifetime replacements of SRF (no affiliation). https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/dot...-castrol-12512
Have you used FCP for this? I'm not sure it's part of their warranty. From their website: "The only exclusion to this program is empty containers with contents that can not be physically returned. For example aerosol spray cleaners and additives that have been discharged or emptied."
We offer an amazing proprietary friction package for the 987 platform that won more professional races in North America then any other pad in a Cayman.
Friction-One
Front Compound - Rs1
Rear Compound -Rs2
Have you used FCP for this? I'm not sure it's part of their warranty. From their website: "The only exclusion to this program is empty containers with contents that can not be physically returned. For example aerosol spray cleaners and additives that have been discharged or emptied."
Although I guess you could flush the old fluid and pour it back into its original container and send that back??
Although I guess you could flush the old fluid and pour it back into its original container and send that back??
I have not used the for srf yet but rotors for 2 years. I think that is referring products that can't be refilled w the old fluid (e.g. aerosol). This is a screenshot from their return form
The best for me, recommended by my "wrench" who crews on race cars, RF-650: https://www.evasivemotorsports.com/store/product/endless-rf-650-brake-fluid-500ml/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwsZ3kBRCnARIsAIuAV_Tv4h8bMArPV0EsKjQpaRAUCQtOmohqIqvNj9oEy yx1sHWGeGJ9900aAgvLEALw_wcB
That fluid in combination with Pagid Yellow pads front and rear, and 350mm Giro 2 Piece rotors on front with slotted 350mm rotors on the rear .....awesome package.
The best for me, recommended by my "wrench" who crews on race cars, RF-650: https://www.evasivemotorsports.com/store/product/endless-rf-650-brake-fluid-500ml/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwsZ3kBRCnARIsAIuAV_Tv4h8bMArPV0EsKjQpaRAUCQtOmohqIqvNj9oEy yx1sHWGeGJ9900aAgvLEALw_wcB
That fluid in combination with Pagid Yellow pads front and rear, and 350mm Giro 2 Piece rotors on front with slotted 350mm rotors on the rear .....awesome package.
Wow! That stuff is even more expensive/liter than Castrol SRF!
Feel free to experiment and report back. I've had fluid boil and didn't like the experience (fluid was approx 6 months old). I switched to Motul 600 and now flush at least 500ml of through the system before any event. I'm happy doing it as I don't worry about the fluid boiling and haven't had any problems since. Overly cautious - probably. Worth the $15 and 20 mins involved? For me, yes. It's my hobby and I'm happy doing it. YMMV etc.
What was the fluid brand that boiled? Did you check the moisture content? Really surprised if it was racing brake fluid if it were truly just six months old. Which car? Did you take the pads down to a few mm? Not to insult, but the thinner the pads the more heat transfer you get to the fluid. I can understand jumping to Motul 600 after your event. Have you thought about a moisture tester, $10 from Amazon. You didn't indicate how much time between events. 500ml is a healthy bleed, but not a flush. Are you topping off the brake fluid after the 500ml with a fresh can? The horizontal axis is moisture %, not time. The assignment of the wet boiling point as defined by 3.7% or approximately 2% in two years is a general rule of thumb. The moisture content can get that high much quicker in moist climates or much longer. Mercedes and Porsche recommend two years while other manufacturers have gone to testing, primarily for moisture content and in some cases copper for corrosion. Everyone agrees that boiling the brake fluid results in a "soft spongy pedal to OMG straight to the floor" Not to be confused with brake fade from the pads getting too hot. While ATE 200 is at the lower end of high temperature brake fluids, for practical purposes they all have almost the same wet boiling except SRF. I deal with several local shops and they all agreed that ATE 200 is more than adequate for my 987.2 If new or relatively new (less than 1% moisture) brake fluid is boiling then a higher temp fluid is needed and/or not letting pads get to thin. My seven month old ATE 200 which sat in the garage during the winter, has 4 track days, two last year and two last week, still tests at less than 1% moisture. Anything greater than 2% moisture should not be used on the track. I'm OK with SCCA and NASA guidelines, but will have to flush for the PCA Jun event regardless of the moisture %. FWIW I added used GT3 brake ducts, they snap in. Never wrestle with pigs, You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
Bleeding and flushing are different. If you don't have any soft pedal symptoms not sure why you need to bleed, but doesn't hurt. Flushing replaces all (actually most) of the brake fluid. I understand that the brakes are the last system on the car you want to fail, but as an engineer some of this has no scientific bases just anecdotal reasons and more often is better. Again for our level of Pcars at a weekend DE. I've often thought about a 981, but paying another $30K (or more) and having to remove the calipers to change front pads. While I'd love an "S" I haven't found they are significantly quicker on the track but I'm guessing that's driver experience and the advantage of my PDK Sport+.
I agree that bleeding and flushing are different. But when I do track events, I always flush, especially since flushing usually includes bleeding, and we should be doing it every two years regardless. If you boil the fluid, even just once, it really should be flushed prior to the next track event.
I agree that bleeding and flushing are different. But when I do track events, I always flush, especially since flushing usually includes bleeding, and we should be doing it every two years regardless. If you boil the fluid, even just once, it really should be flushed prior to the next track event.
I can live with two years but it appears that many of the manufacturers are moving to testing. Boiling brake fluid is about moisture and heat. You can test for the moisture.
03-12-2019, 08:34 AM
