Scratch built race cars?
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Scratch built race cars?
I’m an engineer and like bad ideas, so for a long time I’ve had this plan for down the road (5-15 years) after I’ve finished the build and become proficient driving the Spec Boxster. I’d like to (probably keep the SPB or something similar and) build a prototype or formula race car from scratch with less of an eye towards good class racing and more as a creative outlet for a personal sense of achievement. I’d run it in time trials, open track days, and occasionally unlimited classes, but it would mostly be something cool to generate big grins and mess around in.
I’d like to start with a tube frame roll cage compliant with NASA/SCCA club racing requirements, attach front and rear subframes and flooring, get an eBay/Copart powertrain or donor car (American V8/Audi 01E or Cayman powertrain for instance) and bolt in a dry sump, attach cooling, hydraulics, etc., design and attach a simple double a-arm suspension (like rods and joints), and then do a ton of work on interface design to get production parts adapted to fulfill the consumable part needs. I’d like to start with a simple Lotus 49 type car to get rolling, get a big grin, and prove out the powertain, chassis, and suspension performance. If I hadn’t gotten enough after a few years, I could then develop and add an underbody and prototype bodywork to generate downforce with modest drag and increase the performance envelope. Using front and rear subframes would allow me to largely redesign the powertrain, front, and/or rear end without having to scrap the rest of the car so I could significantly change the project over time.
Has anyone here done or been involved with a build that has some parallels to this? Can you provide insight and/or links to build log threads or videos? It’s fun to peruse and learn from others.
I’m following project binky and have read up on palotov’s progress - both have been a lot of fun to see and fuel my imagination with. At times I check out Formula SAE/student but it’s hard to know what decisions were good or brilliant or ignorant or criminally underdeveloped due to cost/schedule issues.
I’d like to start with a tube frame roll cage compliant with NASA/SCCA club racing requirements, attach front and rear subframes and flooring, get an eBay/Copart powertrain or donor car (American V8/Audi 01E or Cayman powertrain for instance) and bolt in a dry sump, attach cooling, hydraulics, etc., design and attach a simple double a-arm suspension (like rods and joints), and then do a ton of work on interface design to get production parts adapted to fulfill the consumable part needs. I’d like to start with a simple Lotus 49 type car to get rolling, get a big grin, and prove out the powertain, chassis, and suspension performance. If I hadn’t gotten enough after a few years, I could then develop and add an underbody and prototype bodywork to generate downforce with modest drag and increase the performance envelope. Using front and rear subframes would allow me to largely redesign the powertrain, front, and/or rear end without having to scrap the rest of the car so I could significantly change the project over time.
Has anyone here done or been involved with a build that has some parallels to this? Can you provide insight and/or links to build log threads or videos? It’s fun to peruse and learn from others.
I’m following project binky and have read up on palotov’s progress - both have been a lot of fun to see and fuel my imagination with. At times I check out Formula SAE/student but it’s hard to know what decisions were good or brilliant or ignorant or criminally underdeveloped due to cost/schedule issues.
#2
Rennlist Member
Highly recommend the grassroots forum. Many exocet and locost build over there and the crowd tends to be much more "build it yourself" over buy the nicest you can afford.
#3
Rennlist Member
Could i suggest an admittedly different outlet for your enthusiasm for crazy ideas and rewarding outcomes? Somewhere near you is a local university with a a team building some sort of race car—maybe a nasa car, maybe something electric, maybe ?—in an engineering and fabrication competition that needs your skills and enthusiasm as a team advisor.
Just saying it could be a fun outlet if you’re an enthusiast kind of guy.
Just saying it could be a fun outlet if you’re an enthusiast kind of guy.
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
GRM? I think I set up account there once upon a time. I’ll have to lurk around and read up on threads there. Thanks!
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Could i suggest an admittedly different outlet for your enthusiasm for crazy ideas and rewarding outcomes? Somewhere near you is a local university with a a team building some sort of race car—maybe a nasa car, maybe something electric, maybe ?—in an engineering and fabrication competition that needs your skills and enthusiasm as a team advisor.
Just saying it could be a fun outlet if you’re an enthusiast kind of guy.
Just saying it could be a fun outlet if you’re an enthusiast kind of guy.
#6
Rennlist Member
Defintly check out some SCCA races and time trials. There some real horror shows and some really nice home built cars. It would be worth talking to folks.
I've had the same dream but my guestimate is that the successful projects are way out of of my price range. Lots of fab and machine work. If you have access to a full machine shop you may not need to outsource so much, but I'd still budget north of 100k and know that you could never sell it.
The other problem I've seen, is the folks that spend that much love and care building these cool things rarely push nearly hard enough on the track.
Certainly wish you the best, would love to live vicariously through you if you proceed.
I've had the same dream but my guestimate is that the successful projects are way out of of my price range. Lots of fab and machine work. If you have access to a full machine shop you may not need to outsource so much, but I'd still budget north of 100k and know that you could never sell it.
The other problem I've seen, is the folks that spend that much love and care building these cool things rarely push nearly hard enough on the track.
Certainly wish you the best, would love to live vicariously through you if you proceed.
Last edited by jscott82; 02-23-2019 at 08:54 PM.
#7
Instructor
To piggyback on the college idea, check out Formula SAE, some proper insane engineering can go into those cars if the budgets are there.
For example, one team built an actuator controlled floating diffuser to consistently stay level with the ground at the ideal height. But still, nothing compares to the feeling of the first carbon tub you hand build and the first startup!
For example, one team built an actuator controlled floating diffuser to consistently stay level with the ground at the ideal height. But still, nothing compares to the feeling of the first carbon tub you hand build and the first startup!
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#8
Three Wheelin'
A couple more forums to check out:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dsrforum - DSR used to be an SCCA class that was a playground for home built prototypes. I think the class has changed and now has more pro-built cars, but the forum has a bunch of guys who like to build their own stuff. You might find it interesting to peruse.
apexspeed.com - more open wheel focused, but they seem to be pretty DIY too. Lots of knowledge there.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dsrforum - DSR used to be an SCCA class that was a playground for home built prototypes. I think the class has changed and now has more pro-built cars, but the forum has a bunch of guys who like to build their own stuff. You might find it interesting to peruse.
apexspeed.com - more open wheel focused, but they seem to be pretty DIY too. Lots of knowledge there.
#9
My suggestion would be to start with something like an NP01 that is reasonably well designed and has "everything" you need and then modify it to suit. There's so much planning that goes into custom building a car to avoid perpetual rework that jumping in with nothing more than false bravado will likely result in disappointment.
#10
Pick the class then what you can build. Realize if you pick something like SCCA P2/P1 you will not be competitive with a homebuild competing with Wolf, Sthors and Elans dp01s. Google sports racer technology might get some info on building. Maybe on apexspeed. There are a bunch of guys who build from scratch. In SCCA you are racing unless there is a local chapter with developed TT. I have never heard of a developed SCCA TT program. NASA has TT that is well developed but not sure about classes. Some people will also buy a P2/p1 car and develop them. That might be enough challenge for some.
#11
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reverse engineer a Radical.
Starting from scratch and building it from the ground up is a project that will never be complete.
This guy built his own 962.... it became a lifestyle.
http://www.962and904.com/962/
Starting from scratch and building it from the ground up is a project that will never be complete.
This guy built his own 962.... it became a lifestyle.
http://www.962and904.com/962/
#12
Addict
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Yeah, buy a used older P2/DSR and upgrade it; you'll have more fun by working on upgrades instead of beating your head against the wall debugging reliability.
There are a number for sale - our core site is the "dsrforum" (now labeled Sports Racer Forum) linked a few back.
Nearly everything on a prototype is done differently than a converted street car, it feels like. You have to give up all the tin top world when you step up to the wonderful world of real racecars...
It does become a lifestyle, a second job. But so rewarding...
There are a number for sale - our core site is the "dsrforum" (now labeled Sports Racer Forum) linked a few back.
Nearly everything on a prototype is done differently than a converted street car, it feels like. You have to give up all the tin top world when you step up to the wonderful world of real racecars...
It does become a lifestyle, a second job. But so rewarding...
#13
Addict
Rennlist Member
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PS - once you get a good grounding in how the cars run ( a few years racing with them as-is), a good upgrade complexity path could be taking something like an old Van Diemen and converting it over to P2, and upgrading as you see fit. Set it up with the appropriate Mazda motor, Zetec I think, and you can even stand to benefit from Mazda's contingency money - they're currently the only engine/manufacturer sponsoring the class. All us bike motor guys are running unsupported...
#15
As others here have said, the SCCA P1/P2 class is made for what you are interested in doing. Or, if you are interested in formula cars, the Formula 1000 rule set may be what you want. You may not be competitive right away, but who knows.
At any rate, I strongly suggest building to a particular rule set such as you can find in the SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR), or you will end up building something that is not classed competitively, and that no one else will ever want,
Concerning time trials, certain SCCA divisions (SEDiv for example) have an on-going time trials program that welcomes all GCR class cars including prototypes and formula cars. Recently the SCCA national group has confusingly taken on promoting time trials, but had excluded "real race cars". I hear that is changing now, but I'm not sure where they are going with that.
I suggest you hang out at the apexspeed.com forum for formula cars or the dsrforum for sports racer prototypes to learn more about these cars.
At any rate, I strongly suggest building to a particular rule set such as you can find in the SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR), or you will end up building something that is not classed competitively, and that no one else will ever want,
Concerning time trials, certain SCCA divisions (SEDiv for example) have an on-going time trials program that welcomes all GCR class cars including prototypes and formula cars. Recently the SCCA national group has confusingly taken on promoting time trials, but had excluded "real race cars". I hear that is changing now, but I'm not sure where they are going with that.
I suggest you hang out at the apexspeed.com forum for formula cars or the dsrforum for sports racer prototypes to learn more about these cars.