sim: static vs motion for driver training
 

For driver training, is a "home" motion sim a huge improvement over a good static setup? Big jump in cost to get motion so is this a case of getting most of the training value of a sim from the static setup or is there a lot of extra value in motion? Also a lot of competing motion technologies - seat motion, full cockpit motion, d-box, etc. Any of these better than the others?

In my experience, it's up to the user. TEST THEM BEFORE BUYING.

I like D-Box, but don't feel it's necessary. I've tried SimCraft and many others over the last decade, up to and including Cruden's "home" Hexapod. Not enamored. Latency, mechanical slop, overblown motion, more a distraction than a help. But that's just me.

In my opinion, a well done static sim is more than adequate.

I've been in the flight simulation business for 25+ years. Motion cueing systems are not as important as a good visual display and highly accurate hand and feet control systems. As Pro Coach referred to, latency between visual and motion system cues actually cause negative training, and in some cases in flight simulators cause sim sickness. Google flight simulator sickness and you can find research papers written by the US Navy and NASA.

I've always struggled with sims, and generally couldn't even drive a partial lap without crashing.

I had a chance to try a 3-DOF SIM over the summer, using Oculus Rift instead of monitors. The 3-DOF was done by actuators that could push up on the back of the seat, plus one that could shift rear of the seat side to side (to simulate loss of traction).

I drive a Miata, and a good time for me at the Glen is 2:15 or so. The Sim was using some sort of Porsche cup car, and in the 30 minute session I got down to 1:50, and only had one big crash and a couple of small offs. The SIM owner's best time was a 1:48, and I think with a bit more time I could have easily gotten to that time.

Compare that to my previous sim experience where I couldn't get a Miata halfway around the track w/o crashing. I wish I knew how much of it was the Rift vs. the 3-DOF.

IMO, a VR headset makes a huge difference in providing a more real-world experience and transfer of that experience from the living room to the track. Panning your vision to the left and right with a VR headset is more like being in the actual car, looking at a flat screen in front of you is not. Regarding motion systems, lets assume a 3-DOF or even 6-DOF motion system is perfectly tuned to have minimal latency to the visual display. In the best of conditions it can only provide onset cues and then those cues must be washed out because the actuators run out of travel to provide any sustained G-forces. So you aren't really getting a real-world experience through the seat of your pants, and that is the next most important source of input from the car after your eyeballs. I'm not saying there is no value to having a well-tuned motion system, I'm just saying it's not that important relative to visual display accuracy and hands/feet control accuracy. Even the FAA has realized that motion systems in $25M flight simulators isn't as big a deal as once thought 25 years ago, but they are still required for the highest fidelity certification (Level D, Part 60). In flight simulators the motion system is most valuable for vibrations (touchdown on runway, which wheel is first, etc.), malfunctions (blown tires, etc.) and rough air simulation (windshear, turbulence). The only simulator I'm aware of that can provide sustained G-force cueing is one in a multi-story tower at NASA Ames research center. I assume that one is still in operation. In that NASA simulator, the 6-DOF motion system and cockpit moves up and down and side to side inside a large building to help enhance sustained G-force simulation.

I've only driven one setup that had motion. I don't know the brand, but I know it wasn't cheap. Like just about everyone I know who drove it, I found the motion annoying, and not particularly helpful.

I made two changes to my rig that have really transformed the sim experience for me. I upgraded my brake pedal to the Perfect Pedal, and I bought a VR headset (Samsung Odyssey HMD). It took me from struggling to stay on track, to running at real-life race pace. I find that the VR setup REALLY helps me sense rotation and as a result I can keep ahead of the car. I wish VR had better resolution (The Samsung has the same resolution as Vive Pro at a much better price), but the value of immersion is considerable. At first I was fatigued quickly when using the headset, but I acclimated fairly quickly. Recently a group of my racing buddies and I had a two-hour non-stop practice session. I had no issues staying in the headset for that long.

VR will get you 90% of the way there and is better than any monitor setup.

Thanks for the input. I'm surprised there isn't much support for motion, not just the lower end units. Most of the things I have read favor triple screens. VR looks like something to add on and experiment with. Motion sickness and poor resolution seem to be the problems with the current generation.

Sounds like I should get the best static setup the budget will support.

The resolution of present VR units really isn't quite there yet -- it's really not possible to dispute that you get a significantly better view with details using monitors still. Latency between head motion and image moving to follow that was an issue until recently but I think the present crop of VR units is close enough that latency as a source of sickness is much less of a concern now. When I first got an Oculus Rift I had terrible trouble with motion sickness and no amount of "stick at it you'll get used to it" helped. What did make the real difference was locking the view in the sim to the horizon. Adam Brouillard has a good piece on why this matters and how to fix it on his web site if you are interested. Even so I find one thing in particular still gives me huge trouble -- pulling to a stop will make my stomach flip even with a lot of VR hours under my belt. I've solved this by just closing my eyes for the moments between low speed and no speed when coming to rest...turns out that was the last key for me to switching to VR for iRacing once and for all. Given the space needed and the expense of setting up triples it might be worth jumping to that directly if you like the VR experience (maybe see if a friend locally has a setup you can try??).

Agreed, VR resolution still isn't sharp, but will be in time. For me, I'd rather deal with the lower resolution of VR to gain the more immersive and real-world experience of looking in different directions just as I do with my head and eyes on track in the car. The first time I tried VR, my heart rate jumped up about 20 beats a minute due to the tricks it played on my brain, but after a couple of 15 minute sessions it never really was an issue for me. I found the Oculus better for me simply because it was more comfortable and light on my head compared to the others that were on the market about 12 months ago when I bought my sim racing setup. Some guys at work are doing some cool stuff with blended reality, haptic gloves combined with VR headsets.

For me, the most important part of my rig is a direct drive wheel. In sim, you're relying on all your feedback from the wheel so that level of detail and sensitivity is a must for immersion.

I've mentioned this before but I'd not be interested in sims without VR. The VR makes is what makes it for me. It forces me to pay attention since my entire vision is taken up by the view out of the car. The depth you get with is worth the resolution trade off. I went from a rift to an Odyssey+ and it's been a nice upgrade for me.

Each his own though. I have a NLRV3 seat mover but it's more of a nice to have than a must. I can run the same times with or without it. Seat movers will also have less latency and faster response time than chassis movers but there are pro's and con's to both.

Seat shakers (many good ones are versions of subwoofers) are very effective for providing some realistic vibration cues and are relatively low cost and compact.

Definitely in ProCoach's corner on this one...ultimately it will depend on personal preference, as well as what you're looking to get from your sim time. I spend a considerable amount of time on the sim between events, and during the off season - maybe 8-10 hours a week - and have found (for me) that pedals, screen resolution/frame rate, and wheel are the best investment areas. I've tried the high-end motion sims, and for me, it seemed much more of a novelty than a training tool - especially when considering the increase in cost. Let's assume $5k for a decent home rig (if you don't go too crazy) versus $50k for a motion rig - the increase in training value is absolutely not tenfold. That said, if folks have the money to spend, and like the motion, nothing wrong with that.

I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.

Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!

Bingo. To me, in bold is the number one benefit for IRL (in real life) drivers to use a sim.

Do you have any specific recommendations for the wheel/drive and pedals? Sounds like the quality of the feedback you get from the static components is critical.

pedals: https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim...v=7516fd43adaa
wheel :https://www.simracingbay.com/

i had triples then went VR, ran VR for months but went back to triples. As much as i love the VR if you set up your triples correctly i think its just as good if not better than VR.

I may get flamed for this, because it's not the Gucci high end stuff, but I have really enjoyed the Fanatec line. I'm very curious to see how their Direct Drive base is received, though, as I've resisted the DD upgrade to date. I drove a DD wheel down at Simcraft and I'm not sure if it was just calibrated poorly or what, but it felt very numb compared to what I'm using at home. In any event, this is what I'm using:

Fanatec Clubsport V2.5 base: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/wheel-...base-v2-5.html
[It is a belt-driven wheel, and while I suspect that at my pace of use it will fail at some point, after more than a year and a half at 8-10 hours per week it's still going strong.]

Fanatec Clubsport GT Forza Motorsport wheel: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/steeri...sport-usa.html
[I like the Xbox-flavored hub because it allows me to program buttons for radio, brake bias adjustment, etc. If you have your own actual steering wheel to use, you can get the hub by itself for $100 cheaper.]

Fanatec Clubsport Pedals V3: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/pedals...ls-v3-usa.html
[There are better pedals out there for sure, but for consumer grade, I really like these - I can dial up the firmness, along with some other bells/whistles, to get a pretty good feeling out of the brake pedal. Unfortunately for me, the inverted version of these weren't available for order when I bought my pedals, but have been looking to switch over to the inverted to get my foot geometry a little closer to what it's like in real life.]

No I'm still on the Fanatec V2.5. After a year or so I think I've got them set up pretty well - RB came over and drove some this winter and said my whole setup felt like an actual car compared to what he's got at home, so that made me feel like I got close to the right mark. I think when it comes time to swap out the wheel base, I may take a swing at some of the higher end pedal setups we discussed.

On graphics - that's definitely where I spent the lion's share of money/attention. I've got two GeForce GTX 1080 Ti's on the GPU side, and a 10-core processor, all pushing pixels to three Dell XPS S2716DG QHD 27" monitors (with GSync to maximize the dual 1080's). The level of detail and refresh rate is just bananas. The key from there is just to make sure your monitors are spaced appropriately to give your eyes the proper scale. This is where I see people go wrong with these giant monitors and whatnot. For example, from my eyes' perspective, the size of the steering wheel on screen is exactly the same size as the wheel in my hand. To me, it makes a mountain of difference when training your eyes for the apexes, track-out, etc.

I have heard great things about fanatec as well. Curious as to how some of you have the vibrating speakers set up, may be my next add.

Really interesting thread! Are there companies that sell a complete package? I don't know that much about computers, graphics cards, etc. and would be interested in exploring purchasing a racing simulator but don't have the interest in researching all of the parts to build one. Would be great to be able to buy a "package."

No shortage of places, but I prefer to work with folks that have been around for awhile and will be around for awhile, that this is their company and full time job.

Many of these companies sell $20K-$80K full motion rigs (SimCraft, CXC, the folks in Ohio), but for dead nuts simple, a few of my Cup clients have had good experience with Sim Seats in Richmond, Virginia.

I have no commercial connection with them at all, but they've been around and I hear no complaints from their customers. And that's tough to do with something as potentially support-intensive as a sim, even one that is static.

Motion is a waste of money in my opinion for a few reasons. You dont need to go crazy when building a setup and anyone can have a badass sim setup for under 5K if they do it right.
Reasons to not go the motion route. If just the seats moves and it's realistic to your real car, you need to bolt your real seat down lol
Yeah bumps are fun, but how many times do you remember bumps actually effecting you in the seat, sims cant replicate proper G's yet, so dont think getting thrown around will replace that.

VR is the absolute game changer in sims and should be the priority over everything (except a good brake pedal). In VR you can judge distance naturally, a brake zone at 300m actually feels like 300m!
Spend money on a badass brake pedal, it will transform how the car feels and behaves, a Fanatec brake will work, but I'd highly recommend Heusinkveld Pro pedals.

But at the end of the day, the physical rig doesnt matter as much as the motive going into each session. Treat the sim seriously and see serious results, treat it like a game and it will only be that!

Word.

Good to see Elliot Skeer here! Not only is Elliott a fine driver, but also a trailblazer in effective remote sim coaching.

Why practice the wrong things when you can have Elliott help you practice the right way around a particular circuit?

Also, go through a set up sweep in a session and SEE/FEEL the difference in the way the car behaves, and talk through these changes with Elliott or another experienced remote sim coach. Hit the track at speed, instead of spending all weekend getting there.

All kinds of good things can happen using resources readily available...

Concur w/ everyone here that motion is basically a waste. I have a D-Box/RSeat motion sim at home and it's mostly a gimmick for my friends when they come over (especially after they've been drinking). When combined with an Oculus Rift it's pretty cool, but still nothing like real life. I've switched to a standard single monitor (from the triple display or VR headset) because I've been planning to stream a lot more sessions and it's easier for that.

Personally, I mainly use it to learn new tracks or to do a short session at a track I haven't been to in awhile before revisiting it -- I find it invaluable for that. I've shown up at new tracks and in just 3-4 laps I'm up to race pace... it's almost unbelievable. As much time as I've spent on it, I don't feel that it really helps me on the technique of driving (maybe I'm doing it wrong or my wheel/pedals aren't realistic enough)... but it is useful to keep good habits (always looking ahead, etc). A month or 2 ago I rigged up an eye tracker to it and goofed around for a few laps.. it was pretty interesting. I'd like to spend some more time with it, but have just been too busy.


-mike

Thanks for the kind words Pete, trying my best but have a long way to catch up to you!

Exactly the point, NBA players can just go shoot a thousand shots a day, cant run a thousand laps a day without a Scott Tucker budget!

The beauty of the sim is being able to get as close to a real race mental mindset as possible, I've had heart rates on the sim be higher than the real car at times, helps create the pre-race nerves commonplace :)

So I ended up selling my seat mover NLR V3. It was fun in VR but the problem is getting thrown around in the seat and trying to be consistent in driving. I'm sure everyone has a different level of what they consider to be immersion. I enjoyed it while I had it but I'm quite happy to have moved on. Also, the feedback from the direct drive wheel is more granular, now that I'm no longer using the wheel to hold myself in place. There's also a notable improvement with the consistency on the pedals as my distance to the pedals is not being altered by the seat moving around.

For an easy DIY setup, get a 8020 simlabs rig with a direct drive wheel and high end pedals. Add VR/tripple screen and you're set for a long time.

Your idea for left/right cues by buttkickers sounds like it would be worthwhile to try. Report back here and let us know how it worked out.

Absolutely this is the way to go. Full motion is much more of an ineffective party trick when trying to make the sim driving as consistent as possible. 8020 is a fantastic way to build a rig, the one thing I would say is to start looking at curved monitors vs triples. They are really starting to drop in price and IMO are more effective than Trips because of the single screen without bezels cutting right though the view.

Yeah, if you're not going VR, the large curved monitors are probably a good way to go.

Believe your talking about Simvibe. Its rcommended that a 5 channel amplifier along with a dedicated sound card be utilzed. They have a great site for tech support,

I will report back when I have had a chance to try them out. I've had all the shakers and amp for a while, just haven't had time to hook them up. I did pull everything out of the box and organize it for installation, so I'm making baby steps.

I have the same question about curved ultrawide FOV being enough. I have no experience with curved ultrawides, but from what I've read the BenQ Curved 21:9 35" (XR3501) seems to be one of the preferred ultrawides for iRacing. Also from reading (not experience -- please correct me if I'm wrong), 144hz refresh seems to be important for any iRacing monitor. I saw a an even wider curved "ultrawide" monitor on display at a Microsoft store -- I think it was 32:9. I have no idea whether 32:9 is good, or even works, for iRacing, but it seems like it would come even closer to the FOV of triples.

I will check it out if stereo doesn't get the job done.

I run VR, but I dont find it to be an issue when I have raced on setups with a large curved screen. And personally I dont feel one has to have the exact correct FoV, when I ran a single screen I was running 86* FOV when the correct number was like 55*. I also run the rear mirror at like 120* so it gives me all of the rear/side visibility I need!

It took many months, but I finally had time to hook up the shakers with a stereo signal and it works great. A million times better than mono because it definitely gives you left/right cues, but it obviously doesn't give you as much granular control as sim vibe software does. I used 4 small Dayton pucks (https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...8-ohm--300-386) mounted under the the 4 seat supports and they are plenty strong enough for cues. I wired 2 on the left and 2 on the right in parallel to create a 4ohm load on each side and am driving them with a small stereo T-amp. The key is to get the crossover setting exactly right and low enough so that sounds don't bleed through and create false shaking (for stuff that shouldn't shake).

I had a single Buttkicker Gamer 2 before and I really disliked it -- way too large, and it would rattle with the way it mounted clamping on a post, the power button on the wired remote almost never worked. Adding another Buttkicker would have provided left/right cues, but I did not like the Buttkicker I had at all. The tiny Daytons are not individually as powerful (though shockingly powerful for their size), but 4 of them, well placed, works really well for cues. If you want to bend the 80/20 frame with vibration :) you probably need something stronger, but if you want cues, the pucks are really good despite their tiny size.

Thanks for the update, all good info. :thumbup:

I used a short length of "1x5" wood (3/4" x 4 1/2" actual) and a 70mm hole saw ( ) to mount the Dayton pucks on small blocks of wood, then bolted that wood on the 80/20 frame using 5/16" x 1.25" bolts with slider 5/16" nuts in the frame.

I agree with most of these posts.. really good static rig is the way. Many options depending on budget and how much realism you are willing to pay for.

Strongly recommend a 80/20 style rig as you can infinitely adjust in the future. Several good manufacturers from the cheaper 4play rig to the HE setup and beyond.

HE Pro pedals (now replaced by the "Sprint") are amazing for the price point of 750 (then several great options at around $1200) and direct drive wheel is a must for realism (1000-1500) Sim-vibe+butt kickers for road feel/revs etc is really good (though setup getting more complicated now with a second sound card, amp, etc).

Triple screen or VR. If you go triples.. do your research on the monitor.

Ballpark numbers: (10k will build a very good static rig, don’t even think full motion at that number). Of course can go cheaper in lots of ways - back to the first point of how much realism are you willing to pay for.

Rig 1000
Wheel 2000
Pedals 1000
Triple screen 2000
Shakers/amp 500
PC 2500 (1000 on the GPU with 144mhz 27” triples)
Other peripherals/stuff/software 1000

hope this helps, pic of my build attached

Matty


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...613eed545.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8b2d55299.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...00d768995.jpeg

matt33, nice setup. Where did aluminum box frame parts come from?

https://8020.net/

Pretty common for DIY sim frames. Works great.

I have a preference for the Fanatec Rennsport Cockpit... ;)

Great overview Matt and very nice setup you have. I just upgraded to 4Play's "Competition" model fame and it's pretty awesome. I had a very early 4Play frame before that was good, but not amazing, but the new 4Play Competition model is excellent. Very happy with the kit and John's customer support is awesome.

Don't know how I missed this thread. I also have an 80/20 rig I recently built/am still tinkering on. In my case, the P1 from Sim lab in YERP, and their triple monitor stand with fourth monitor add-on. I also have a Fanatec CSW 2.5 wheelbase + wheel, and HE sprint pedals.

I did all the building myself, including the computer, which came with me dropping a panel (LOL), so YMMV. I would say all in I will be around 8k or so, running triple 2k panels and also VR using a CV1 Oculus. Still tinkering, and don't have good pictures yet.

That said, I have been out of HPDE for a long time; like 10 years. iRacing in good leagues and official races, to me, is way way more fun and accessible compared to a DE. To DE a car here just outside DC, I have to have the car inspected, then tow the car to Summit Point, stay in a hotel, trailer it back.. No thanks! Come home from a business trip from Tokyo, and want to run a race at Spa? I can do that! With the right league, the competition is a lot of fun, and the wheel to wheel is much closer than you would get in most club racing series anyways.

A replacement for wheel to wheel. No. A full training tool for the same. No. Chasing the illusive 1 or 0.5 seconds off the crazy alien times for somebody that actually wheel to wheel races is a waste of time. One of the biggest things you have to realize about going fast in the sim is that you will be doing things with the car you would never do in the real world. There is a limit to that, and I think those that have driven in real life have trouble ever getting to certain alien times because of it.

I also think motion is a gimic. The input is mostly through the wheel and the sound.

Thanks. This is the heusinkveld engineering rig. Nice thing about it is the slim form factor achieved through some of the custom pieces. 4Play is a cheaper equivalent, ProSim similar quality design (be aware ProSim use proprietary 80/20 dimensions meaning you need to buy parts from them to fit match exactly)

I liked how clean and integrated the Heusinkveld rig is with their pedals and shifter. Great firm and amazing customer service. PM me for a thread on my Entire build if interested.

Matty

I have a similar 80/20 rig (Sim Lab P1) that I recently upgraded some:
Simucube DD wheel
HE Ultimates
Bass vibration stuff on the seat
32 inch low latency curved triple screens
Quaif shifter


Immersion is incredible and lot of fun. All you need. Motion is stuff is no near in terms of relatability to the actual race car!

For those you race VR, get a Pimax 5k+ I've been using one for a few months. For simracing it's almost perfect. The biggest difference if the wide FOV which is pretty close to having a racing helmet on.

Coming from a rift/vive/odyssey, it's like being able to use both eyes vs just one to see. The clarity is also a major step above other sets. The only drawback is that you basically need a 2080ti to run it at high specs.