sim: static vs motion for driver training
02-06-2019, 12:21 PM
#16
Definitely in ProCoach's corner on this one...ultimately it will depend on personal preference, as well as what you're looking to get from your sim time. I spend a considerable amount of time on the sim between events, and during the off season - maybe 8-10 hours a week - and have found (for me) that pedals, screen resolution/frame rate, and wheel are the best investment areas. I've tried the high-end motion sims, and for me, it seemed much more of a novelty than a training tool - especially when considering the increase in cost. Let's assume $5k for a decent home rig (if you don't go too crazy) versus $50k for a motion rig - the increase in training value is absolutely not tenfold. That said, if folks have the money to spend, and like the motion, nothing wrong with that.
I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.
Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.
Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
02-06-2019, 06:28 PM
#17
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Definitely in ProCoach's corner on this one...ultimately it will depend on personal preference, as well as what you're looking to get from your sim time. I spend a considerable amount of time on the sim between events, and during the off season - maybe 8-10 hours a week - and have found (for me) that pedals, screen resolution/frame rate, and wheel are the best investment areas. I've tried the high-end motion sims, and for me, it seemed much more of a novelty than a training tool - especially when considering the increase in cost. Let's assume $5k for a decent home rig (if you don't go too crazy) versus $50k for a motion rig - the increase in training value is absolutely not tenfold. That said, if folks have the money to spend, and like the motion, nothing wrong with that.
I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.
Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.
Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
02-07-2019, 10:13 AM
#18
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Definitely in ProCoach's corner on this one...ultimately it will depend on personal preference, as well as what you're looking to get from your sim time. I spend a considerable amount of time on the sim between events, and during the off season - maybe 8-10 hours a week - and have found (for me) that pedals, screen resolution/frame rate, and wheel are the best investment areas. I've tried the high-end motion sims, and for me, it seemed much more of a novelty than a training tool - especially when considering the increase in cost. Let's assume $5k for a decent home rig (if you don't go too crazy) versus $50k for a motion rig - the increase in training value is absolutely not tenfold. That said, if folks have the money to spend, and like the motion, nothing wrong with that.
I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.
Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.
Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
02-07-2019, 10:20 AM
#19
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I think the note from JarheadGT3 regarding high-horsepower graphics is super important, too. IRacing and other current gen sims scale up the level of detail according to hardware tests built in to the sim. The more GPU power, the more detail is drawn. Also, less latency (faster “drawing”) of the detail helps the mind accept it as more realistic. It all is dependent on that as well as tactile feedback from the wheel and pedals.
To me, the brake pedal stiffness and action is key, followed by a properly calibrated wheel. Having had satisfactory experience with belt drive or even geared drive wheels, the DD wheel is a diminished return, for me. But those pedals are key!
JarheadGT3, are you still running that Perfect Pedal hydraulic load cell or something else?
To me, the brake pedal stiffness and action is key, followed by a properly calibrated wheel. Having had satisfactory experience with belt drive or even geared drive wheels, the DD wheel is a diminished return, for me. But those pedals are key!
JarheadGT3, are you still running that Perfect Pedal hydraulic load cell or something else?
02-07-2019, 10:50 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
wheel :https://www.simracingbay.com/
i had triples then went VR, ran VR for months but went back to triples. As much as i love the VR if you set up your triples correctly i think its just as good if not better than VR.
02-07-2019, 01:38 PM
#21
Fanatec Clubsport V2.5 base: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/wheel-...base-v2-5.html
[It is a belt-driven wheel, and while I suspect that at my pace of use it will fail at some point, after more than a year and a half at 8-10 hours per week it's still going strong.]
Fanatec Clubsport GT Forza Motorsport wheel: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/steeri...sport-usa.html
[I like the Xbox-flavored hub because it allows me to program buttons for radio, brake bias adjustment, etc. If you have your own actual steering wheel to use, you can get the hub by itself for $100 cheaper.]
Fanatec Clubsport Pedals V3: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/pedals...ls-v3-usa.html
[There are better pedals out there for sure, but for consumer grade, I really like these - I can dial up the firmness, along with some other bells/whistles, to get a pretty good feeling out of the brake pedal. Unfortunately for me, the inverted version of these weren't available for order when I bought my pedals, but have been looking to switch over to the inverted to get my foot geometry a little closer to what it's like in real life.]
02-07-2019, 01:57 PM
#22
I think the note from JarheadGT3 regarding high-horsepower graphics is super important, too. IRacing and other current gen sims scale up the level of detail according to hardware tests built in to the sim. The more GPU power, the more detail is drawn. Also, less latency (faster “drawing”) of the detail helps the mind accept it as more realistic. It all is dependent on that as well as tactile feedback from the wheel and pedals.
To me, the brake pedal stiffness and action is key, followed by a properly calibrated wheel. Having had satisfactory experience with belt drive or even geared drive wheels, the DD wheel is a diminished return, for me. But those pedals are key!
JarheadGT3, are you still running that Perfect Pedal hydraulic load cell or something else?
To me, the brake pedal stiffness and action is key, followed by a properly calibrated wheel. Having had satisfactory experience with belt drive or even geared drive wheels, the DD wheel is a diminished return, for me. But those pedals are key!
JarheadGT3, are you still running that Perfect Pedal hydraulic load cell or something else?
On graphics - that's definitely where I spent the lion's share of money/attention. I've got two GeForce GTX 1080 Ti's on the GPU side, and a 10-core processor, all pushing pixels to three Dell XPS S2716DG QHD 27" monitors (with GSync to maximize the dual 1080's). The level of detail and refresh rate is just bananas. The key from there is just to make sure your monitors are spaced appropriately to give your eyes the proper scale. This is where I see people go wrong with these giant monitors and whatnot. For example, from my eyes' perspective, the size of the steering wheel on screen is exactly the same size as the wheel in my hand. To me, it makes a mountain of difference when training your eyes for the apexes, track-out, etc.
02-08-2019, 12:35 PM
#23
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I have heard great things about fanatec as well. Curious as to how some of you have the vibrating speakers set up, may be my next add.
02-08-2019, 11:04 PM
#24
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Fanatec offers great value, for sure.
02-09-2019, 08:34 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Really interesting thread! Are there companies that sell a complete package? I don't know that much about computers, graphics cards, etc. and would be interested in exploring purchasing a racing simulator but don't have the interest in researching all of the parts to build one. Would be great to be able to buy a "package."
02-11-2019, 04:09 PM
#27
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Many of these companies sell $20K-$80K full motion rigs (SimCraft, CXC, the folks in Ohio), but for dead nuts simple, a few of my Cup clients have had good experience with Sim Seats in Richmond, Virginia.
I have no commercial connection with them at all, but they've been around and I hear no complaints from their customers. And that's tough to do with something as potentially support-intensive as a sim, even one that is static.
02-11-2019, 04:30 PM
#28
Instructor
Motion is a waste of money in my opinion for a few reasons. You dont need to go crazy when building a setup and anyone can have a badass sim setup for under 5K if they do it right.
Reasons to not go the motion route. If just the seats moves and it's realistic to your real car, you need to bolt your real seat down lol
Yeah bumps are fun, but how many times do you remember bumps actually effecting you in the seat, sims cant replicate proper G's yet, so dont think getting thrown around will replace that.
VR is the absolute game changer in sims and should be the priority over everything (except a good brake pedal). In VR you can judge distance naturally, a brake zone at 300m actually feels like 300m!
Spend money on a badass brake pedal, it will transform how the car feels and behaves, a Fanatec brake will work, but I'd highly recommend Heusinkveld Pro pedals.
But at the end of the day, the physical rig doesnt matter as much as the motive going into each session. Treat the sim seriously and see serious results, treat it like a game and it will only be that!
Reasons to not go the motion route. If just the seats moves and it's realistic to your real car, you need to bolt your real seat down lol
Yeah bumps are fun, but how many times do you remember bumps actually effecting you in the seat, sims cant replicate proper G's yet, so dont think getting thrown around will replace that.
VR is the absolute game changer in sims and should be the priority over everything (except a good brake pedal). In VR you can judge distance naturally, a brake zone at 300m actually feels like 300m!
Spend money on a badass brake pedal, it will transform how the car feels and behaves, a Fanatec brake will work, but I'd highly recommend Heusinkveld Pro pedals.
But at the end of the day, the physical rig doesnt matter as much as the motive going into each session. Treat the sim seriously and see serious results, treat it like a game and it will only be that!
02-11-2019, 06:08 PM
#29
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Motion is a waste of money in my opinion for a few reasons. You dont need to go crazy when building a setup and anyone can have a badass sim setup for under 5K if they do it right.
Reasons to not go the motion route. If just the seats moves and it's realistic to your real car, you need to bolt your real seat down lol
Yeah bumps are fun, but how many times do you remember bumps actually effecting you in the seat, sims cant replicate proper G's yet, so dont think getting thrown around will replace that.
VR is the absolute game changer in sims and should be the priority over everything (except a good brake pedal). In VR you can judge distance naturally, a brake zone at 300m actually feels like 300m!
Spend money on a badass brake pedal, it will transform how the car feels and behaves, a Fanatec brake will work, but I'd highly recommend Heusinkveld Pro pedals.
But at the end of the day, the physical rig doesnt matter as much as the motive going into each session. Treat the sim seriously and see serious results, treat it like a game and it will only be that!
Reasons to not go the motion route. If just the seats moves and it's realistic to your real car, you need to bolt your real seat down lol
Yeah bumps are fun, but how many times do you remember bumps actually effecting you in the seat, sims cant replicate proper G's yet, so dont think getting thrown around will replace that.
VR is the absolute game changer in sims and should be the priority over everything (except a good brake pedal). In VR you can judge distance naturally, a brake zone at 300m actually feels like 300m!
Spend money on a badass brake pedal, it will transform how the car feels and behaves, a Fanatec brake will work, but I'd highly recommend Heusinkveld Pro pedals.
But at the end of the day, the physical rig doesnt matter as much as the motive going into each session. Treat the sim seriously and see serious results, treat it like a game and it will only be that!
Good to see Elliot Skeer here! Not only is Elliott a fine driver, but also a trailblazer in effective remote sim coaching.
Why practice the wrong things when you can have Elliott help you practice the right way around a particular circuit?
Also, go through a set up sweep in a session and SEE/FEEL the difference in the way the car behaves, and talk through these changes with Elliott or another experienced remote sim coach. Hit the track at speed, instead of spending all weekend getting there.
All kinds of good things can happen using resources readily available...
02-11-2019, 06:31 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Concur w/ everyone here that motion is basically a waste. I have a D-Box/RSeat motion sim at home and it's mostly a gimmick for my friends when they come over (especially after they've been drinking). When combined with an Oculus Rift it's pretty cool, but still nothing like real life. I've switched to a standard single monitor (from the triple display or VR headset) because I've been planning to stream a lot more sessions and it's easier for that.
Personally, I mainly use it to learn new tracks or to do a short session at a track I haven't been to in awhile before revisiting it -- I find it invaluable for that. I've shown up at new tracks and in just 3-4 laps I'm up to race pace... it's almost unbelievable. As much time as I've spent on it, I don't feel that it really helps me on the technique of driving (maybe I'm doing it wrong or my wheel/pedals aren't realistic enough)... but it is useful to keep good habits (always looking ahead, etc). A month or 2 ago I rigged up an eye tracker to it and goofed around for a few laps.. it was pretty interesting. I'd like to spend some more time with it, but have just been too busy.
-mike
Personally, I mainly use it to learn new tracks or to do a short session at a track I haven't been to in awhile before revisiting it -- I find it invaluable for that. I've shown up at new tracks and in just 3-4 laps I'm up to race pace... it's almost unbelievable. As much time as I've spent on it, I don't feel that it really helps me on the technique of driving (maybe I'm doing it wrong or my wheel/pedals aren't realistic enough)... but it is useful to keep good habits (always looking ahead, etc). A month or 2 ago I rigged up an eye tracker to it and goofed around for a few laps.. it was pretty interesting. I'd like to spend some more time with it, but have just been too busy.
-mike