ajcjr

After being in a proper race car i do want as much safety as i could get. This year i was thinking of renting a race car a few times while trying to do a DE here and there. I was going to try to set up a poll as well but i failed at that lol. So i was either 1. thinking of selling my 997 and looking for a nice cayman to track with as much safety gear as possible, 2. look for a cheap but well built car i can enjoy while DE or 3. sell 997 and buy proper race car. I will admit that 3 is a last resort as i do enjoy taking some morning drives in my P car.

A few things: i do have my scca national license for racing (not sure if it matters), i am open to other types of dedicated track cars besides Porsche but not sure i want to be pointing by all the way down the straight. Ill probably do 10 days a year for DE and a race or two, may even jump into a kart. Again safety is a big concern of mine as well.

thanks

AC

ps i was thinking about continuing to track a bike, they say w age comes the cage but right now i am leaning on getting out of the two wheels.

Olemiss540

Wait. Are you going to race? DE? DD? Definately not an everything car out there.

Cage is needed to race which takes street driving out of the picture. Need to decide on that one first it seems.

LuigiVampa

When I was transitioning into racing I would have instructors with race experience ride with me in my half-caged 944. Very experienced instructor told me at the end of a session "you are ready to race and never driver this car on the track again. Get something with a full cage."

When you are new, and slower, the danger of not having full safety gear is minimized to a certain degree. Once you build up speed you need it.

If you have raced, and are experienced enough to go fast, you should really consider a DE car with full safety gear.

My $0.02.

Olemiss540

I dont agree with this in the sense it means all HPDE drivers in the advanced/instructors group should have full race cars.

Half cages with race seats and harnesses are PLENTY safe in my opinion for DEs, I dont care how good of a driver you are.

If you do not feel safe riding or driving in an HPDE with a half cage, you are driving way too aggressively on a track with other HPDE style drivers in the mix.

ajcjr

Thank you, basically i plan to rent a race car for when i do race but may only be 1-2 times this year. I want to stay in a car and will DE as well. I understand i may not be able to use the same car for both and I am fine with it. I have raced and still do, which is one of the reasons i havent tracked my 997, im just not comfortable going on a race track trying to drive without any safety gear. I didnt know if the half cages are safe enough for street and track with race seats or they are still dangerous for street use.

GoatFarmer

If you are at the level of a racer (and I don't mean someone who got there license at a 3 day race school) then you should have no trouble keeping up with anyone in a DE setting regardless of car. When I go out for hardship runs in my 205 hp NASA GTS2 car I am one of the fastest guys in the DE group. I am a firm believer in a fully caged and prepared race car on track once you start to push the limits of the car and are going quite quickly. The further up the food chain you go, the more often you will go off and the more likely you will crash.

Get an E36 or E46 with a full cage, seat, hans, belts, track pads and high temp fluid. All other mods are gravy.

LuigiVampa

I don't drive aggressive during races so I hardly drive aggressive during DE. You are assuming car to car contact is the only cause of accidents.

Agree to disagree.

Olemiss540

And you are assuming what I am assuming.

A properly setup 997 with modern safety systems and a half cage/hans/race seats is safer IN MY OPINION than a bmw e36 race car or 944 race car for HPDE. I HPDE an e36 race car, but dont think twice when I am driving along side instructor or advanced level drivers in modern day cars with half cages.

Now a new Corvette ZR1 with zero safety improvements? I wonder how safe that is being driven even 8/10s on a track.

GoatFarmer

A full cage will be safer than a half cage for rollover protection. It doesn't happen often, but I've seen it happen at turn 10 at Summit Point. The key is having seat, harness, hans and something proper to connect it to. Half cage is fine, but full is better. Trouble with a full cage is you need a tow vehicle and trailer at that point. Some people don't have the dedication or space to store a rig. Another thing I will point out is you start to go quicker once you get a tow rig. If you ball it up, at least you can get home easily.

Olemiss540

Which is safer for HPDE in you opinion, a caged 944 racecar or a half caged 997? I am not trying to be stubborn but do not believe a 35 year old caged car to be as safe as a modern vehicle in an HPDE where the bulk majority of collisions are impacts with a tire wall or barricade.

OP,

I will quit posting in this thread but personally believe you could do some minor safety improvements on you 997 and DO NOT need a dedicated race car for occasional HPDE.

fatbillybob

IMO your number always comes up if you do this sport long enough. I have been taken out 3X in 20 years none of my own doing 2 of those times was being hit from the rear. The latest was at Sebring last weekend. You really get complacent on track until you get a good wack! Then you really appreciate all the safety gear you have in the car when you step out of your wreck completely unscathed. Your car is there to sacrifice itself to save your life. It sucks to have to visit and pay the bodyshop but that's racing. Well a DE isn't racing but a many DE drivers are just as fast as any racer. Increasing Pain comes with increasing velocity. That concrete wall doesn't soften itself if you are only doing DE. That tire blow out and spin into the wall happens in DE just as it happens in racing. Car to Car contact might be less in DE but 99% of DE clubs don't have have the safety workers of SCCA or the depth on trackside safety as SCCA. At Indy Runoffs the on track medical center was staffed! At Sebring T17 the back straight corner can't see T17 mid turn. The pit entry corner can't see T17 mid turn. SCCA adds another corner worker mid T17 eventhough that is not a typical corner station. Does your DE club do that? That's how you help prevent car to car contact.

The safety gear rules are for my safety. I even wear my nomex socks even if I'm going out for practice. I've been rolled over like a turtle once. I have been hit hard in the back twice. It is amazing what a properly mounted full containment seat can do to prevent injury. Not all cages are created equal. I looked at a probuilt touring car last week with a great cage design and porous uneven MIG welds. Are you kidding me? No thanks! Even if you are a "wallet" racer, learn what make good safety gear and learn how it should be installed. Don't blindly trust the pros. I have seen too many "pro fails" from badly welded joints to miss mounted firebottles, to improperly installed harness anchors. When you are on track you really want everything working 110%

911ted

Airbags and racetracks don't mix, IMHO

LuigiVampa

I don't believe I was assuming anything as you spoke about driving aggressive around other cars. Small point - it doesn't matter.

No one NEEDS a dedicated race car - it's a function of how safe you want to be.

I happen to still own my 944 half-cage car as well as a 2011 Cayman GTB1 class car. Sure, there is a world of difference between the safety of the two cars.

That being said, there are variations between all types of cars, so when speaking in generalities, and not cherry picking bad examples, having full safety gear, including a full cage, is always going to be superior.

If you want to run with less safety gear that is a personal choice. I've seen all manner of bad accidents at DE so I prefer to run in race conditions even when I am just having fun. Anybody who argues that DE is completely different from racing is just fooling themselves.

+1

+1

ajcjr

Thanks for all the replies, i have been racing for 6 years in cars, 5 years in karts, i just didnt get my license. The one good thing is i have a truck for a trailer, my main concern here is safety and if i can get away with a street/track car not to have a car i may be only use ten times a year sitting in the garage. Everyone makes wonderful points and i appreciate your replies.

I did see an older bmw with a cage for sale that looked like a good build.

Just an fyi i plan on wearing full nomex suit and underwear while on track. i have it why not use it.

Airbags was another concern of mine after reading some views on if they should be used with a hans or not.

Otto Mechanic

Naturally your question solicited the usual "nothing is safer than a full race car" from just about everyone, but predictably, that wasn't the question. As I recall it was:

"Besides a full out race car what is the safest way to DE?"

which more or less rules out the answer, "A full out race car".

So what's the answer? Hard to say exactly, what are your goals? Sounds like you'd like to be as safe as possible while still being able to enjoy driving your car on the street? You can find lots of discussion here on that subject and you aren't alone in your desires. I'll give you my solution, it may not be the best one, but it's mine and it's what I'm building so I've put my money where my mouth is. I'm setting up a 1989 944 S2 for HPDE. I may want to race it someday but I'm not focused on doing that right away and may never race it.

The cage is the real issue. Contemporary wisdom tells us that a full cage isn't safe on the street. There are dissenting opinions. At least one fellow who participates on this board has said he has a car with a full cage installed that he can drive on the street without a helmet because it isn't possible for his head to strike any part of the cage. I wouldn't pretend I could verify that claim, but I could believe it. Personally I'm looking for a segmented bolt in cage that's race legal, and that has a removable front part. I think I may have found one but I'm not certain yet. If it does work, it will be expensive. Take a look at the cages offered by Stable Energies.

So what other problems present? Well, HALO seats come to mind. While a HANS will take the place of airbags in a frontal collision, a HALO protects you from side impact. But HALO seats restrict peripheral vision on the street; you can't look over your shoulder. What to do?

Sparco offers a HALO seat with removable wings. If you happen to fit a Sparco Ergo, you can have a HALO seat that works on the street, you just remove the wings when not needed and put them on at the track. Done.

What's left? Harnesses are a pain but they aren't unsafe on the street. New PCA rules will require you to have a HANS if you have a harness installed. Not a big deal and certainly one that makes sense. I'll avoid getting on my soapbox about legislating personal safety equipment. Neither harnesses or a HANS will prevent you from streeting your car.

How far would you like to go after that? A kill switch is fine in a street car. So is a fire suppression system. Nothing to stop you from installing either in your daily driver.

The full cage is the real problem and hitting your head on it isn't the only issue. Getting in and out of a fully caged car with side impact bars is a literal pain in the a** .

I imagine you can take it from there. My solution is a half cage, HALO seats, HANS, fire suppression and electrical cutoff in and out of the car. That's as safe as I feel I need to reasonably be for HPDE events. Don't forget your tow hooks?