Besides a full out race car what is the safest way to DE
01-18-2019, 08:54 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
I would take 3 things into consideration:
- Budget
- Purpose
- Logistics
If you have the budget to add a race car, trailer, maintenance...
If you want to race.
If logistics are not an issue
Get a race car, it's the perfect tool for the job.
If not, determine what you have to compromise on
- Budget
- Purpose
- Logistics
If you have the budget to add a race car, trailer, maintenance...
If you want to race.
If logistics are not an issue
Get a race car, it's the perfect tool for the job.
If not, determine what you have to compromise on
01-18-2019, 07:25 PM
#17
The cage is the real issue. Contemporary wisdom tells us that a full cage isn't safe on the street. There are dissenting opinions. Personally I'm looking for a segmented bolt in cage that's race legal, and that has a removable front part. I think I may have found one but I'm not certain yet. If it does work, it will be expensive. Take a look at the cages offered by Stable Energies.
So what other problems present? Well, HALO seats come to mind. While a HANS will take the place of airbags in a frontal collision, a HALO protects you from side impact. But HALO seats restrict peripheral vision on the street; you can't look over your shoulder. What to do?
Sparco offers a HALO seat with removable wings.
How far would you like to go after that? A kill switch is fine in a street car. So is a fire suppression system. Nothing to stop you from installing either in your daily driver.
Getting in and out of a fully caged car with side impact bars is a literal pain in the a**
.
So what other problems present? Well, HALO seats come to mind. While a HANS will take the place of airbags in a frontal collision, a HALO protects you from side impact. But HALO seats restrict peripheral vision on the street; you can't look over your shoulder. What to do?
Sparco offers a HALO seat with removable wings.
How far would you like to go after that? A kill switch is fine in a street car. So is a fire suppression system. Nothing to stop you from installing either in your daily driver.
Getting in and out of a fully caged car with side impact bars is a literal pain in the a**
.
01-18-2019, 11:54 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Can you put a bolt in half cage in your 997? Add seats, harnesses, HANS, a fire bottle/switch and tires and you’re in good shape.... but then again you’re basically a cage, suspension, and gut job away from a race car.
The role you’ve described is the GT3’s raison d’etre.
To me the big issue with either of those - upgrading your 997 or swapping to a GT3 - is the financial risk, how long can you go without a big repair (mechanical or crash damage), and are you ok with the costs and so forth if it happens. One significant incident (e.g. motor lets go or a mild crash) would cost similar money to purchasing a cheaper race car.
Can you just store your hypothetical race car in your trailer? A typical BMW, SPC/SPB, or any number of others would work well for DE. If you can run with the SCCA you can also consider formula cars.
Otherwise I’d consider whether you can identify a car that 1) you would enjoy as a street car, 2) you would enjoy as a track car, and 3) that fits into a race class you could run in. Do the trackday modifications but follow the class rules as much as you can and leave the HVAC system in and such. Later you can choose to sell the parts, build it out, or whatever makes sense. It won’t be your cheapest way but it’s a decent way to go.
Of course if you find someone’s trackday project that fits the bill it might just be the cheapest way.
The role you’ve described is the GT3’s raison d’etre.
To me the big issue with either of those - upgrading your 997 or swapping to a GT3 - is the financial risk, how long can you go without a big repair (mechanical or crash damage), and are you ok with the costs and so forth if it happens. One significant incident (e.g. motor lets go or a mild crash) would cost similar money to purchasing a cheaper race car.
Can you just store your hypothetical race car in your trailer? A typical BMW, SPC/SPB, or any number of others would work well for DE. If you can run with the SCCA you can also consider formula cars.
Otherwise I’d consider whether you can identify a car that 1) you would enjoy as a street car, 2) you would enjoy as a track car, and 3) that fits into a race class you could run in. Do the trackday modifications but follow the class rules as much as you can and leave the HVAC system in and such. Later you can choose to sell the parts, build it out, or whatever makes sense. It won’t be your cheapest way but it’s a decent way to go.
Of course if you find someone’s trackday project that fits the bill it might just be the cheapest way.
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donutBOB (07-29-2019)
01-19-2019, 12:39 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks again for the replies.
i have room for a trailer and another car. I have thought about converting my car but was thinking more about finding something someone has already modified or buying a newer model and just add the safety features. Im also not against going non p car.
racing w the scca is fun but the seat time is not great, one of the reasons im looking elsewhere for racing.
i have room for a trailer and another car. I have thought about converting my car but was thinking more about finding something someone has already modified or buying a newer model and just add the safety features. Im also not against going non p car.
racing w the scca is fun but the seat time is not great, one of the reasons im looking elsewhere for racing.
01-19-2019, 02:08 AM
#20
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Which is safer for HPDE in you opinion, a caged 944 racecar or a half caged 997? I am not trying to be stubborn but do not believe a 35 year old caged car to be as safe as a modern vehicle in an HPDE where the bulk majority of collisions are impacts with a tire wall or barricade.
OP,
I will quit posting in this thread but personally believe you could do some minor safety improvements on you 997 and DO NOT need a dedicated race car for occasional HPDE.
OP,
I will quit posting in this thread but personally believe you could do some minor safety improvements on you 997 and DO NOT need a dedicated race car for occasional HPDE.
To the OP, give serious consideration to renting in the form of being a driver on an endurance team. We've recently been introduced to a racer who owns a Miata Cup and rents out seats. He's one of the drivers and maintains the car. We just buy in. When you consider the cost of a race weekend (entry fee, towing up and down, consumables like tires, fuel, oil, brakes, etc.,) it pencils out. The seat time in 12 hour enduros is about 4 hours broken up over two stints with a 3 person team so plenty of time behind the wheel. Something to consider.
01-19-2019, 09:15 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=fatbillybob;15576459]Anyone who can build you a cage can also source these bolt-in cage bosses to make removable elements. That will allow you to prep your car for the track while leaving the car mostly stock for the street. Just like Sparco has the Halo seat with removable wings any cage builder could build slide in elements to convert your street seat into a containment seat using the rollover hoop structure as anchor. Safety is all about the seat as your central piece to the safety system. Everything starts at the seat then the rest is to preserve the cockpit. You have fire systems in race cars because it is so hard to get out of them. At the end of the day remember that the car is ment to crush and give up its life to save your life. A wrecked car is only a bummer and some money. The goal is to come out healthy and enjoy the sport.
The key DE safety features are halo seat, 1/2 roll cage to support roof in a roll-over and secure shoulder harness of 6 point harness, and Hans device for your neck restraint.
"The goal is to come out healthy and enjoy the sport;" I own a 944 race car and IMO, it is one of the best DE options, fantastic cornering and it is you, the car, and the rubber in contact with the track, NO ABS.
The key DE safety features are halo seat, 1/2 roll cage to support roof in a roll-over and secure shoulder harness of 6 point harness, and Hans device for your neck restraint.
"The goal is to come out healthy and enjoy the sport;" I own a 944 race car and IMO, it is one of the best DE options, fantastic cornering and it is you, the car, and the rubber in contact with the track, NO ABS.
01-19-2019, 09:37 AM
#22
Burning Brakes
Turning a street car into a race car will be much more expensive than buying a race car (ask me how I know - never again).
If you have room, add an already sorted out race car.
Looking forward to seeing you at the races :-)
If you have room, add an already sorted out race car.
Looking forward to seeing you at the races :-)
01-19-2019, 12:27 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
I've always just had fixed back seats, 6 point harnesses, HANS and a half cage in my track cars. That's because I've wanted to drive them on the street here and there. Definitely it's a compromise over a full cage, I'm leaving a decent amount of safety on the table.
I used to trailer the car to the track but that quickly became a PITA. Since I don't have the space to store the trailer at my house, it was a real time suck to go get the trailer, load up the car, then after the event drop the car off and then drop the trailer off.
Since my time to track is very limited now I decided to sell the dedicated race car, trailer, etc. I'm back to doing it the way I used to, which is driving the car to and from events, sometimes pulling a tire trailer behind the car, depending on distance to the track.
The key for me, for a track car, is having something that you don't really care about and you can walk away from completely without financial worry. I recently picked up a '94 Miata that I'm going to use as my track car for that exact reason.
It has a rollbar in it already but I need to figure out the seats/harnesses part, particularly the 2" broomstick rule. I'm all torso and will need to really drop the seat for me to fit. My thoughts are to get a Sparco Ergo and mount it directly to the floor...
I used to trailer the car to the track but that quickly became a PITA. Since I don't have the space to store the trailer at my house, it was a real time suck to go get the trailer, load up the car, then after the event drop the car off and then drop the trailer off.
Since my time to track is very limited now I decided to sell the dedicated race car, trailer, etc. I'm back to doing it the way I used to, which is driving the car to and from events, sometimes pulling a tire trailer behind the car, depending on distance to the track.
The key for me, for a track car, is having something that you don't really care about and you can walk away from completely without financial worry. I recently picked up a '94 Miata that I'm going to use as my track car for that exact reason.
It has a rollbar in it already but I need to figure out the seats/harnesses part, particularly the 2" broomstick rule. I'm all torso and will need to really drop the seat for me to fit. My thoughts are to get a Sparco Ergo and mount it directly to the floor...
01-19-2019, 01:13 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
I've always just had fixed back seats, 6 point harnesses, HANS and a half cage in my track cars. That's because I've wanted to drive them on the street here and there. Definitely it's a compromise over a full cage, I'm leaving a decent amount of safety on the table.
I used to trailer the car to the track but that quickly became a PITA. Since I don't have the space to store the trailer at my house, it was a real time suck to go get the trailer, load up the car, then after the event drop the car off and then drop the trailer off.
Since my time to track is very limited now I decided to sell the dedicated race car, trailer, etc. I'm back to doing it the way I used to, which is driving the car to and from events, sometimes pulling a tire trailer behind the car, depending on distance to the track.
The key for me, for a track car, is having something that you don't really care about and you can walk away from completely without financial worry. I recently picked up a '94 Miata that I'm going to use as my track car for that exact reason.
It has a rollbar in it already but I need to figure out the seats/harnesses part, particularly the 2" broomstick rule. I'm all torso and will need to really drop the seat for me to fit. My thoughts are to get a Sparco Ergo and mount it directly to the floor...
I used to trailer the car to the track but that quickly became a PITA. Since I don't have the space to store the trailer at my house, it was a real time suck to go get the trailer, load up the car, then after the event drop the car off and then drop the trailer off.
Since my time to track is very limited now I decided to sell the dedicated race car, trailer, etc. I'm back to doing it the way I used to, which is driving the car to and from events, sometimes pulling a tire trailer behind the car, depending on distance to the track.
The key for me, for a track car, is having something that you don't really care about and you can walk away from completely without financial worry. I recently picked up a '94 Miata that I'm going to use as my track car for that exact reason.
It has a rollbar in it already but I need to figure out the seats/harnesses part, particularly the 2" broomstick rule. I'm all torso and will need to really drop the seat for me to fit. My thoughts are to get a Sparco Ergo and mount it directly to the floor...
01-19-2019, 01:40 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Miata can be had for great pricing, my concern is having my arm out all day pointing people buy, otherwise i wouldnt mind that car.
01-19-2019, 03:02 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Which is why mine has a turbo on it. Makes ~250hp now and weighs 2100lbs. So Boxster S power while being significantly lighter. Should be entertaining...
01-19-2019, 04:14 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Anyone who can build you a cage can also source these bolt-in cage bosses to make removable elements. That will allow you to prep your car for the track while leaving the car mostly stock for the street. Just like Sparco has the Halo seat with removable wings any cage builder could build slide in elements to convert your street seat into a containment seat using the rollover hoop structure as anchor. Safety is all about the seat as your central piece to the safety system. Everything starts at the seat then the rest is to preserve the cockpit. You have fire systems in race cars because it is so hard to get out of them. At the end of the day remember that the car is ment to crush and give up its life to save your life. A wrecked car is only a bummer and some money. The goal is to come out healthy and enjoy the sport.
My extremely sincere thanks,
01-19-2019, 04:28 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
I feel just as safe in my completely stock 991.1 as I do in my fully caged E36 race car on the track. Don’t underestimate how good the factory safety systems are on modern Porsche’s.
