Porsche Air-Cooled Cup USA Series
01-21-2019, 04:37 PM
#181
Rennlist Member
I have an E car and I'm a little late to this thread. I have to say I wasn't expecting the cup series to get hijacked by the TD's....
Setup is different. As far as I know, you can't hot swap between TD's and R7's. I mean you can... But you shouldn't. I was one of the test dummies who ran TD's for a few events in the 911 cup series last year. It would seem that alignment and ride height are different for the TD's. Way less camber on the TD's for sure.
So....
I have several questions.
Are the current E 911 class rules staying exactly the same then as last year with regards to weight etc?
Will the E class 911's be running in the same group as the 911 Cup cars? I would assume so, but just double checking.
Was there any voting involved in this process by any of the class participants to see what they wanted?
How many people have committed to running TD's in the 911 cup for the 2019 season?
In case anyone is wondering, I'm the stupid, bad guy that made this change. 
Let me explain a bit of my logic. You may not agree, and in the end, you may be right.
I look at B Stock, that once had a lot of stock 944s, and I see them all racing happily in SP1. I look at SPB , knowing that those cars could have all been D Stock, but nobody runs them there. What I take away is that folks like to run in big groups, but they also seem to like light weight and a controlled tire, because we could just as easily have B Stock and D Stock being where all the 944s and Boxsters went. BTW - I realize that those are both "spec" series so costs are contained, but that ship sailed long ago on D, E and F 911s.
The goal for 911 Cup was/is to pull the D and F cars in as well. But, time was short for 2019 and we needed to move forward, which did not leave us enough time to effectively balance the weights. Another option, as some mentioned, would be to let E run at regular weight and let D remove weight, but the vast majority of these cars are E cars, and I REALLY want to get some weight out of them, because ballast sucks. Additionally, I'm not sure taking 150# out of Ds make them run with Es anyway. I also considered inviting F cars at their regular weight, but it was unclear how they would match up. I'd love to see someone who isn't concerned about the F championship run TDs at a few races and see how they do against 911 Cup. I'd also request that D Stock folks PM me and let me know how much ballast you run, or how much weight you could cheaply and easily lose.
The tire: I know this is polarizing. I think 911 Cup needs a spec tire, and I don't think making R7s the spec is a great idea. We still have D, E, F where the R7 is the de-facto spec for those who prefer it. We had data on the TD, and a willing partner in Hoosier, so that seemed an obvious choice for 2019. That could change in the future, but don't expect it to change to the fastest tire, or a slick, for that matter.
Other concerns I have heard:
I don't want to change tires/setups for different races: 911 Cup is now a national class. So while the Klassische Meisterschaft (Classic Championship) will be contested at 6 tracks, 911 Cup can run at any PCA race and is eligible for a PCA national championship.
Can I still run E at the same time?: No. You always have to choose a single class, so even if you are heavy enough to be legal for E, you can't run both in he same race.
It will fragment the best class in PCA CR: That's my biggest concern. But again, I look at SP1 and SPB and I think I see where we can be in a couple years, hopefully with D and F included. I think we have the opportunity to take a good thing and make it even better. A lot of that will depend on how racers, including a bunch of folks on this list, respond. Get onboard. Help us refine the things we didn't get right, and let's have a single competitive class where most of the aircooled 911s can run together, and maybe even spend a little less money doing it.
West
Let me explain a bit of my logic. You may not agree, and in the end, you may be right.I look at B Stock, that once had a lot of stock 944s, and I see them all racing happily in SP1. I look at SPB , knowing that those cars could have all been D Stock, but nobody runs them there. What I take away is that folks like to run in big groups, but they also seem to like light weight and a controlled tire, because we could just as easily have B Stock and D Stock being where all the 944s and Boxsters went. BTW - I realize that those are both "spec" series so costs are contained, but that ship sailed long ago on D, E and F 911s.
The goal for 911 Cup was/is to pull the D and F cars in as well. But, time was short for 2019 and we needed to move forward, which did not leave us enough time to effectively balance the weights. Another option, as some mentioned, would be to let E run at regular weight and let D remove weight, but the vast majority of these cars are E cars, and I REALLY want to get some weight out of them, because ballast sucks. Additionally, I'm not sure taking 150# out of Ds make them run with Es anyway. I also considered inviting F cars at their regular weight, but it was unclear how they would match up. I'd love to see someone who isn't concerned about the F championship run TDs at a few races and see how they do against 911 Cup. I'd also request that D Stock folks PM me and let me know how much ballast you run, or how much weight you could cheaply and easily lose.
The tire: I know this is polarizing. I think 911 Cup needs a spec tire, and I don't think making R7s the spec is a great idea. We still have D, E, F where the R7 is the de-facto spec for those who prefer it. We had data on the TD, and a willing partner in Hoosier, so that seemed an obvious choice for 2019. That could change in the future, but don't expect it to change to the fastest tire, or a slick, for that matter.
Other concerns I have heard:
I don't want to change tires/setups for different races: 911 Cup is now a national class. So while the Klassische Meisterschaft (Classic Championship) will be contested at 6 tracks, 911 Cup can run at any PCA race and is eligible for a PCA national championship.
Can I still run E at the same time?: No. You always have to choose a single class, so even if you are heavy enough to be legal for E, you can't run both in he same race.
It will fragment the best class in PCA CR: That's my biggest concern. But again, I look at SP1 and SPB and I think I see where we can be in a couple years, hopefully with D and F included. I think we have the opportunity to take a good thing and make it even better. A lot of that will depend on how racers, including a bunch of folks on this list, respond. Get onboard. Help us refine the things we didn't get right, and let's have a single competitive class where most of the aircooled 911s can run together, and maybe even spend a little less money doing it.
West
I have several questions.
Are the current E 911 class rules staying exactly the same then as last year with regards to weight etc?
Will the E class 911's be running in the same group as the 911 Cup cars? I would assume so, but just double checking.
Was there any voting involved in this process by any of the class participants to see what they wanted?
How many people have committed to running TD's in the 911 cup for the 2019 season?
01-21-2019, 04:59 PM
#182
I have an E car and I'm a little late to this thread. I have to say I wasn't expecting the cup series to get hijacked by the TD's....
Are the current E 911 class rules staying exactly the same then as last year with regards to weight etc?
Will the E class 911's be running in the same group as the 911 Cup cars? I would assume so, but just double checking.
Was there any voting involved in this process by any of the class participants to see what they wanted?
How many people have committed to running TD's in the 911 cup for the 2019 season?
Are the current E 911 class rules staying exactly the same then as last year with regards to weight etc?
Will the E class 911's be running in the same group as the 911 Cup cars? I would assume so, but just double checking.
Was there any voting involved in this process by any of the class participants to see what they wanted?
How many people have committed to running TD's in the 911 cup for the 2019 season?
The groups are split by the steward of the race based on car count and speed, but it's hard to imagine E and 911 Cup not ending up in the same group.
I talked to a lot of folks to get opinions. There wasn't a vote.
2 days after the announcement, so we will need a bit of time to see which way folks go.
West
01-21-2019, 05:18 PM
#183
Drifting
After the complete and utter failure of the push by Mark White, owner of Accumoto, for the TD tires in the 2018 911 CUP (see car counts last year).......
Welcome to 911 Accumoto Cup.
Saved Accumoto for another year.
Put a hurt on the rest of the 911 E cars (and all the other air cooled letter cars).
Thanks,
Clarke Simpson
2018 PCA E National Champion
Welcome to 911 Accumoto Cup.
Saved Accumoto for another year.
Put a hurt on the rest of the 911 E cars (and all the other air cooled letter cars).
Thanks,
Clarke Simpson
2018 PCA E National Champion
Last edited by GT3DE; 01-21-2019 at 05:55 PM.
01-21-2019, 05:43 PM
#185
Drifting
Private message I just received (no I will not tell you who said that):
Your proposal was was better. Put the air cooled cars together in one class for good racing. What was approved just dilutes E, and creates a special class for his customers and their $150k Carreras
Your proposal was was better. Put the air cooled cars together in one class for good racing. What was approved just dilutes E, and creates a special class for his customers and their $150k Carreras
01-21-2019, 05:57 PM
#186
Drifting
When we work out the new air cooled class for 2020, I'd like to have our name back, please.
911 CUP
Accumoto can have their German language old slow tire Cup.
911 Accumoto Alter Langsamer Reifen Cup
911 CUP
Accumoto can have their German language old slow tire Cup.
911 Accumoto Alter Langsamer Reifen Cup
01-21-2019, 06:56 PM
#187
Pro
Originally Posted by dgmark
It looks to me like PCA
effectively split E class the one letter class that was working without adding any more cars to the mix. This is the stupidest move I have seen in a long time. I don't see what the hurry is it would have been much better to wait another year to fully integrate the d,f and g cars.
effectively split E class the one letter class that was working without adding any more cars to the mix. This is the stupidest move I have seen in a long time. I don't see what the hurry is it would have been much better to wait another year to fully integrate the d,f and g cars.
01-21-2019, 07:06 PM
#189
Rennlist Member
The only reason the Street TD tire was included in 911 Cup last year is because Mark White told me that he and his drivers would not participate in the 911 Cup unless we allowed the Street TD tire AND convinced Hoosier to offer a contingency for a second class. To make sure we included everyone, this was done. The result?: Accumoto drivers only participated in 3 race weekends. In one race, there were only two cars on Street TD tires! Throughout the entire season, only 9 drivers actually raced on the TD tire. I think there were only couple of them left driving on the TDs at the end of the year.
In comparison....35 drivers raced on R7 tires last year in the 911 Cup. It is the choice of the class. Why wouldn't the R7 tire be the winning spec tire for the series? Why, instead, would you force the majority of the drivers to change tires? This makes no sense.
Furthermore. If the goal is to reduce weight from cars in E class (putting less stress on cars and making it more fun), I'm not sure why this is so complicated. Figure out how much weight can be taken out of our cars and keep the delta between each type of car in the class as is.
ie.....if I can remove 180lbs from my Euro SC, you would do the same with the Carrera and then add 77lbs. I'm sure this would work with Boxsters and 944s in E class as well. In the end, we are talking about club racing here. Just make it more fun!
ps. I will be driving happily on my R7s in E Class in 2019.
In comparison....35 drivers raced on R7 tires last year in the 911 Cup. It is the choice of the class. Why wouldn't the R7 tire be the winning spec tire for the series? Why, instead, would you force the majority of the drivers to change tires? This makes no sense.
Furthermore. If the goal is to reduce weight from cars in E class (putting less stress on cars and making it more fun), I'm not sure why this is so complicated. Figure out how much weight can be taken out of our cars and keep the delta between each type of car in the class as is.
ie.....if I can remove 180lbs from my Euro SC, you would do the same with the Carrera and then add 77lbs. I'm sure this would work with Boxsters and 944s in E class as well. In the end, we are talking about club racing here. Just make it more fun!
ps. I will be driving happily on my R7s in E Class in 2019.
01-21-2019, 07:10 PM
#190
Rennlist Member
The only thing I learn when I look at SPB, is not to split up one of the most popular and most competitive classes in PCA, like E class. Merging classes = good, splitting them up = bad. If the idea/plan for this 911 Cup class was to merge multiple existing (and small) classes into one, then it should have been proposed, discussed, and designed as such from the outset. Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the change as presented.
01-21-2019, 07:24 PM
#191
Rennlist Member
You are exactly correct. The proposal was to bring D, F, and G into the 911 Cup next year through BOP changes. Timing? Optimistic for sure. However, dumping the series entirely to create a new 911 Cup for 3 cars is strange.
Anyways....I'll be having a great time racing my buddies at Sebring. This is all for fun and I really don't care. E class baby!!!
Anyways....I'll be having a great time racing my buddies at Sebring. This is all for fun and I really don't care. E class baby!!!
01-21-2019, 07:57 PM
#192
Drifting
I'm going to start my own race shop and track support company called Clarke's Kinda Cheap Racing and then get PCA to make my own class for only my customers just like Jerry Woods and Accumoto.
The cars will be just like 911 E cars except different. Because I don't want to be like everyone else. And the spec tire will be Pirelli slicks. The cars will not be allowed to be too shiny. No fancy interiors. Brakes are unlimited except no antilock. I'll get a few customers, we will come to a few races and we will have our own poverty campground in a far away corner of the paddock. I will have one mechanic that actually knows wtf he is doing and one helper guy. Bring your own car, camper, car trailer, tent and beer.
Look for my big grand opening announcement soon!
The cars will be just like 911 E cars except different. Because I don't want to be like everyone else. And the spec tire will be Pirelli slicks. The cars will not be allowed to be too shiny. No fancy interiors. Brakes are unlimited except no antilock. I'll get a few customers, we will come to a few races and we will have our own poverty campground in a far away corner of the paddock. I will have one mechanic that actually knows wtf he is doing and one helper guy. Bring your own car, camper, car trailer, tent and beer.
Look for my big grand opening announcement soon!
01-21-2019, 08:21 PM
#193
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Remember the official PCA motto: “It’s not just the cars. It’s the people”. Yup. People who don’t listen to what club racers want. People who have egos the size of a bus. People who way over complicate and take the fun out of club racing. And people who treat club racers like children.
So glad I didn’t renew my CR license again this year. There are other awesome alternatives out there. Vote with your wallet.
So glad I didn’t renew my CR license again this year. There are other awesome alternatives out there. Vote with your wallet.
01-21-2019, 09:05 PM
#194
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Clarke: Don't forget the grid girls.
01-21-2019, 09:25 PM
#195
Rennlist Member
West. I would bet that most people could easily take 150lbs of added weight out of their car. So, why not just change the entire E class weight by 150lbs and call it a day?