Porsche Air-Cooled Cup USA Series
12-18-2018, 10:54 PM
#77
Rennlist Member
Nice idea. One thing to consider is using real world HP numbers when doing BoP. Factory numbers listed in rules book are a bit off based on reality. 84-86 E cars for example are supposed to be 2779 weight, 207hp at crank, with a power/weight=13.43. Aren't motors really putting out 220-230 at the wheel. Using 1.15 drivetrain loss, that's about 260hp at the crank, making p/w 10.6. (a solid G class p/w) 964 motors and others are also making more than listed as well. Something to think about to try and make level playing field.
Also the HP ratings changed over the years, SAE/DIN etc. Need to compare apples to apples, which the current rules do not.
12-18-2018, 11:35 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
12-19-2018, 08:03 AM
#79
Rennlist Member
Colin, let's agree that would be a fair assumption for cars with the same HP/TQ. But for comparison Kris Taylor managed a record 2:12.623 in D (190+/- HP) (only other D drivers ever under 2:14 were Mike Iapaluccio with a 2:13.395 and my best effort of a 2:13.776), and I can say with confidence I don't see that record being touched in the near future. Current record in E (225+/- HP) is Daniel Martinson with a 2:07.659, roughly a 5 second differential. Lee Lasburg has F (250 +/- HP)with a 2:09.043, Anthony Brown has G (250 +/- HP) with a 2:06.802, and finally Pete Debussmann with a 2:05.758 in H (250 +/- HP). I doubt I would see those sort of numbers unless I converted my Stock D 911 body to carbon fiber. Can only go so far with adding ballast to the E, F, G and H cars and mine had less than 100lbs in it to make 2702 as it was.
Last edited by Gary R.; 12-19-2018 at 09:57 AM.
12-19-2018, 08:59 AM
#80
Rennlist Member
12-19-2018, 09:48 AM
#81
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Posts 1-15 are about the Trophy West air-cooled series. This will include the 964 and 993 cup plus yet to be dertemined other air cooled cars (tbd).
Posts 16 on are about a proposed PCA expanded 911 Cup series.
Requests in the thread and via pm to the moderators to split into two threads were not successful, hence I updated the title and included in post 1 an explanation.
12-19-2018, 09:57 AM
#82
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Ok, for comparison Kris Taylor managed a record 2:12.623 in D (only other D drivers ever under 2:14 were Mike Iapaluccio with a 2:13.395 and my best effort of a 2:13.776), and I can say with confidence I don't see that record being touched in the near future. Current record in E is Daniel Martinson with a 2:07.659, roughly a 5 second differential. Lee Lasburg has F with a 2:09.043, Anthony Brown has G with a 2:06.802, and finally Pete Debussmann with a 2:05.758 in H. I doubt I would see those sort of numbers unless I converted my Stock D 911 body to carbon fiber. Can only go so far with adding ballast to the E, F, G and H cars and mine had less than 100lbs in it to make 2702 as it was.
12-19-2018, 10:16 AM
#84
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
D by itself is a great air cooled class as it’s 95% 911 SC. Never understood why there are not more cars in that class. I know it’s down a lot from its peak,
12-19-2018, 11:55 AM
#85
Instructor
I am certainly in favor of simplifying the PCA Class structure and updating to one class (911 Cup) with updated weight requirements to make racing fair, competitive, and more fun.
@Clarke I understand that I am new to PCA Racing relative to most in this forum, but I would like to understand why the R7 would be the only tire option? After running last year on the Street TD's in a couple of events, my run costs on a per race basis (vs. the same tracks in 2017 on R7's) were substantially reduced. Specifically, brakes lasted longer, no cracks in my tub, and grip was very consistent (particularly in enduros and warm weather). This is including running 1000 miles on track during the Sebring Event (David Murry and PCA) in 6 days on 2 sets of street TD's. Racing on the Street TD has been a lot of fun as well, it does take a period of adjustment from the R7's (no "snap" when a driver exceeds the limit of the tire). Hopefully this can be discussed openly prior to dictating possible requirements.
@Clarke I understand that I am new to PCA Racing relative to most in this forum, but I would like to understand why the R7 would be the only tire option? After running last year on the Street TD's in a couple of events, my run costs on a per race basis (vs. the same tracks in 2017 on R7's) were substantially reduced. Specifically, brakes lasted longer, no cracks in my tub, and grip was very consistent (particularly in enduros and warm weather). This is including running 1000 miles on track during the Sebring Event (David Murry and PCA) in 6 days on 2 sets of street TD's. Racing on the Street TD has been a lot of fun as well, it does take a period of adjustment from the R7's (no "snap" when a driver exceeds the limit of the tire). Hopefully this can be discussed openly prior to dictating possible requirements.
12-19-2018, 07:15 PM
#86
Drifting
Regarding the TD tires... I'm not interested in running a less grippy tire. Apparently no one else but one shop and their customers are either.
You can run whatever tire you want except slicks according to pca stock class rules.
If you want to have a chance at free R7 tires from Hoosier then you'll have to run Hoosier R7 tires (and put a 911CUP banner on your windshield, Hoosier stickers on your car, and a Hoosier patch on your driving suit).
You can run whatever tire you want except slicks according to pca stock class rules.
If you want to have a chance at free R7 tires from Hoosier then you'll have to run Hoosier R7 tires (and put a 911CUP banner on your windshield, Hoosier stickers on your car, and a Hoosier patch on your driving suit).
12-20-2018, 10:56 AM
#87
Instructor
I prefer Gorilla Tape to Duct Tape...my personal preference should not matter to anyone else. Since this potentially impacts all of us, I would encourage a broader discussion that is not biased based on personal preference or opinion of a shop and its customers.
12-20-2018, 11:16 AM
#88
Rennlist Member
For 17 years, the 944 Cup has successfully improved the quality of racing for water cooled front engine Porsches. The series consolidated a splintered community of less favored Porsches spread over numerous classes and organizations. The concept is a proven winner. A similar effort to consolidate the 911 models will have its challenges but should be easier and highly successful given the popularity of the 911 model.
Much needed will be someone to lead the charge and herd the cats for a sustained period of time. Try to be as inclusive as possible, and not exclusive. There is strength in numbers and much better racing. To this end, maybe even a Stock class and a GT class.
Looking forward to watch this series evolve. Better racing will be the outcome I am certain.
Much needed will be someone to lead the charge and herd the cats for a sustained period of time. Try to be as inclusive as possible, and not exclusive. There is strength in numbers and much better racing. To this end, maybe even a Stock class and a GT class.
Looking forward to watch this series evolve. Better racing will be the outcome I am certain.
12-20-2018, 11:37 AM
#89
Rennlist Member
I am certainly in favor of simplifying the PCA Class structure and updating to one class (911 Cup) with updated weight requirements to make racing fair, competitive, and more fun.
@Clarke I understand that I am new to PCA Racing relative to most in this forum, but I would like to understand why the R7 would be the only tire option? After running last year on the Street TD's in a couple of events, my run costs on a per race basis (vs. the same tracks in 2017 on R7's) were substantially reduced. Specifically, brakes lasted longer, no cracks in my tub, and grip was very consistent (particularly in enduros and warm weather). This is including running 1000 miles on track during the Sebring Event (David Murry and PCA) in 6 days on 2 sets of street TD's. Racing on the Street TD has been a lot of fun as well, it does take a period of adjustment from the R7's (no "snap" when a driver exceeds the limit of the tire). Hopefully this can be discussed openly prior to dictating possible requirements.
@Clarke I understand that I am new to PCA Racing relative to most in this forum, but I would like to understand why the R7 would be the only tire option? After running last year on the Street TD's in a couple of events, my run costs on a per race basis (vs. the same tracks in 2017 on R7's) were substantially reduced. Specifically, brakes lasted longer, no cracks in my tub, and grip was very consistent (particularly in enduros and warm weather). This is including running 1000 miles on track during the Sebring Event (David Murry and PCA) in 6 days on 2 sets of street TD's. Racing on the Street TD has been a lot of fun as well, it does take a period of adjustment from the R7's (no "snap" when a driver exceeds the limit of the tire). Hopefully this can be discussed openly prior to dictating possible requirements.
Regarding the TD tires... I'm not interested in running a less grippy tire. Apparently no one else but one shop and their customers are either.
You can run whatever tire you want except slicks according to pca stock class rules.
If you want to have a chance at free R7 tires from Hoosier then you'll have to run Hoosier R7 tires (and put a 911CUP banner on your windshield, Hoosier stickers on your car, and a Hoosier patch on your driving suit).
You can run whatever tire you want except slicks according to pca stock class rules.
If you want to have a chance at free R7 tires from Hoosier then you'll have to run Hoosier R7 tires (and put a 911CUP banner on your windshield, Hoosier stickers on your car, and a Hoosier patch on your driving suit).
Separately and just adding my .02 on more p/w although this is not new info to most here,: NASA GTS is of course are based on p/w also but it is a (pretty much) unlimited class otherwise - and is actual p/w w/ dynos (I know they can vary but supposedly dynojet is the most consistent). PCA stock is published weights from the factory and as pointed out are rarely even close on hp after exhaust and for most air cooled a chip change. Also stock class very much limits allowed mods which is good for cost but not so good for leveling the playing field for older vs. new cars which have an advantage in most everything, aero, gearing, brakes, susp, etc. This doesn't appear too much of a problem going forward for G class and below as the factory's lowest hp car is in H class / base Cayman/Boxster.
Will be interesting to see what the weight changes are.
12-20-2018, 01:33 PM
#90
Instructor
Are you implying R7s snap? Maybe when they are toast but I find them nice and progressive.
Although it doesn't sound like Clark is taking any suggestions (and I get it - simple and possibly relatively cheap) I agree w/ him on this Hoosiers have been the go-to tire for stock class racers a long, long time. Also it sounds like Clark typed out that you can run other tires if you want to but just won't have a chance at free tires (and likely not be competitive).
Separately and just adding my .02 on more p/w although this is not new info to most here,: NASA GTS is of course are based on p/w also but it is a (pretty much) unlimited class otherwise - and is actual p/w w/ dynos (I know they can vary but supposedly dynojet is the most consistent). PCA stock is published weights from the factory and as pointed out are rarely even close on hp after exhaust and for most air cooled a chip change. Also stock class very much limits allowed mods which is good for cost but not so good for leveling the playing field for older vs. new cars which have an advantage in most everything, aero, gearing, brakes, susp, etc. This doesn't appear too much of a problem going forward for G class and below as the factory's lowest hp car is in H class / base Cayman/Boxster.
Will be interesting to see what the weight changes are.
Although it doesn't sound like Clark is taking any suggestions (and I get it - simple and possibly relatively cheap) I agree w/ him on this Hoosiers have been the go-to tire for stock class racers a long, long time. Also it sounds like Clark typed out that you can run other tires if you want to but just won't have a chance at free tires (and likely not be competitive).
Separately and just adding my .02 on more p/w although this is not new info to most here,: NASA GTS is of course are based on p/w also but it is a (pretty much) unlimited class otherwise - and is actual p/w w/ dynos (I know they can vary but supposedly dynojet is the most consistent). PCA stock is published weights from the factory and as pointed out are rarely even close on hp after exhaust and for most air cooled a chip change. Also stock class very much limits allowed mods which is good for cost but not so good for leveling the playing field for older vs. new cars which have an advantage in most everything, aero, gearing, brakes, susp, etc. This doesn't appear too much of a problem going forward for G class and below as the factory's lowest hp car is in H class / base Cayman/Boxster.
Will be interesting to see what the weight changes are.
As you stated, Clarke is not taking suggestions which is clear. We are 3 working weeks away from our cars leaving for Sebring. We will all have choices to make whether we participate, run in PCA in a non-competitive manner, or compete in another series. Given the current chaos, perhaps I would be wise to consider other choices.