No money, no drivey
12-14-2018, 04:01 PM
#136
Rennlist Member
Jarhead, great respect. In a former life I had the good fortune to work with a lot of Marine guards in our Embassies around the world, as well as a number of Force Recon teams 
12-14-2018, 04:02 PM
#137
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Mark Donohue and Paul Van Valkenburgh http://www.pvanvalkenburgh.com/ were the first of several trained engineers to say that the talent people exhibited behind the wheel could be quantified, compared and improved upon, objectively, instead of bar stool bull****.
Then, the whole school thing started, which taught fundamentals that were proven to enhance driver and car performance, promoted, founded and run by smart, fast professional drivers like Jim Russell, Skip Barber, Bertil Roos, Richard Spenard, Jim Fitzgerald and others.
They attracted established pros to be their instructors and to teach the curriculum, and those pro driver/instructors would often be invited by guys (ams) who had attended the schools and then, infected by the disease and addiction, to come along, co-drive and enhance their chances at marquee races like the 3-Hour at Daytona, the 24 Hour and the 12 Hours at Sebring. The pros would get their expenses paid and a small stipend to drive and help get the guys (ams) up to speed and the guys (ams) would buy the car, field and pay for the crew and drive.
For years, the "coaching thing" was an informal, personal relationship between guys that wanted to drive and guys that wanted to field a car and get some seat time themselves. The Skip Barber instructor corps for decades was the most fertile ground to establish these relationships. They didn't call it "coaching" back then, as that was a role reserved for group sports, football, baseball and basketball, not one on one tutoring. Just instructors with a demonstrated level of competence looking for their break, and wealthy students wanting to go racing. Been that way for a long time... Anyone who was racing up until the millenium who said they had a "coach?" Well, that would have made them the laughingstock of the paddock, for sure!
But in professional motorsports, every resource that can be devoted to performance improvement gets a shot. And if they work, the rest of the paddock does it. An early professional coach, who came from a Skip Barber instructor background and was an incredibly fast driver, one of the most effective I know, was Mike Zimicki. MFZ was integrated early on in the development of Graham Rahal and his teammates. Patrick Carpentier and others followed in Mike's footsteps as individual service providers to pro teams.
In am racing, "coaching" became a label that some instructors assumed to enhance their economic stature, particularly after the infamous Tiger Woods interview revealed that even the greatest golfer had a "coach" in the form of his caddy, around 2009. Only then did drivers at the higher levels reveal that they had confidants, advisors, fellow drivers who were able to, by combining many disciplines, some outside racing, enhance a driver's performance beyond what they thought they could themselves.
Fun stuff.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
12-14-2018, 05:09 PM
#138
this thread is so so good. thanks to all for contributing.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
Thanks VR!
12-14-2018, 05:22 PM
#139
I don't quite understand how race teams and team owners operate and why? Let's say I have a bunch of money and I love racing. Why would I start a racing team if I'm not going to do any of the driving myself (or anyone else in my family)? I may invite some rich gentlemen drivers to fill some seats and to help finance the project and maybe afford to attract some paid pros, as well. Doesn't seem I'd do it for profits, as odds are I'd be lucky to break even. What am I missing?
12-14-2018, 06:38 PM
#140
Rennlist Member
Glad you were there and nice to meet again after many years. Warren’s cars were always very well prepared and he drove the heck out of them. From what I remember Warren and I ran pretty close, maybe I had a little edge in '76 and '77. The Monzas were super fast and my little RSR was getting old. Good memories from those days.
Thank you and I sent you a PM
12-14-2018, 06:43 PM
#141
Banned
Just my $0.02, but that answer is going to depend on the team. For example, the team I'm affiliated with has a primary business designing and installing performance parts for Porsches (and other marques), as well as Porsche performance tuning, engine building, general service, and even a line of exotic suspension components. It makes perfect sense for them to be out at the track, fielding and maintaining Porsche race cars. Besides the credibility boost to their brand, the owner also just loves to race! Many other teams have similar stories...but then again I'm sure some don't. Some are pros or gentlemen turned team owners - extreme example: Patrick Dempsey. Some (all??) are businessmen (or women) with a passion for racing, or cars, or performance, etc. The answers will vary, but I'd be willing to bet there are two common threads: a passion for racing/winning, and a passion for building something successful. (Match made in heaven for entrepreneurial minded race enthusiasts.)
12-14-2018, 07:46 PM
#142
Thx. That makes sense. Are there teams (owners) that neither drive themselves nor use the team as a marketing tool for their car-related business and that make a profit exclusively from renting (selling) seats to gentlemen drivers who are their main (only?) source of revenue? They wouldn’t even have to achieve good results as there’s probably enough rich drivers out there ready to pay for the pro experience regardless of results?
12-15-2018, 12:16 AM
#143
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Definitely +1 this book!
On the subject of fast am vs. the pro, and what that does to the equation - the net effect is on the track, not the vocation. What I mean by that is if you can pair a fast am with a seasoned pro, you've got a great start to a winning season (car, crew, engineering, and luck notwithstanding) - but at the end of the race, the am is still an am, and the pro is still a pro. Why? Because driving is the pro's job, not his/her guilty pleasure. There may be a shared passion there for racing, winning, competition, etc., but when the am packs up and heads to the airport on Sunday, he/she's fulfilled (hopefully) and heading back to the real world, where a day job awaits, along with three or four days of taskers, to-do's, and emails piled up. When the pro heads to the airport, he/she is oftentimes headed to another track with another series, or off to a coaching gig, grinding away to keep the bills paid at home. (Now obviously there's the small percentage with factory rides that don't have to do diversify, but that percentage is extremely small.)
Put into the context of my own experience as a gentleman driver...my coach and I are roughly the same age, give or take a year. We both have kids that are similar ages, working spouse, etc. But twenty years ago when I was a snot-nosed Lance Corporal in the US Marines, he was wheeling a 993 RSR in the Rolex Grand Am series. Eight years later when I was getting out of the Marines and joining the civilian workforce, he was already driving in both Rolex Grand Am and the ALMS series, pulling down national wins and podiums. Fast forward another 7 or 8 years, when I was starting my company, he was winning the Daytona 24. By the time I set foot on a race track for the first time, he had been driving professionally so long that children born around the time he went "pro" were old enough to buy cigarettes. Back to the present, he's amassed 20+ years of seat time, championships, and industry experience that my relative speed (or lack thereof) could never replace. No different than if he entered my industry only a few short years ago and was expected to make a credible comparison to the experience that I've gained, culminating where I am today professionally.
Practically speaking, on any given weekend, when he and I work together, I can often get within 0.5-1.0 second of his lap times by the end of the weekend. But that's after 3-4 days of technique and car setup refinement over the course of multiple hours on track, studying video, data, etc. (not to mention all the sim prep ahead of time). In contrast, he laid down that lap time when we rolled the car off the trailer, with tires from the last race, and no setup adjustment. (I'm sure there's an eloquent Malcom Gladwell "10,000 hours" analogy to be made here if you added up all the hours of seat time he possesses.) While relative speed is a significant aspect of professional racing, it's only one. As Peter points out, it's the relative speed, consistency, and ability to manage the car, track, weather, competitors, etc., no matter how dynamic they may be. It's driving two or three different cars in the same weekend, performing at an extremely high level in each. It's structuring a season to maximize your income, exposure, and branding. It's developing and sustaining a dense network across the professional racing economy. It's making a living driving a car.
I may have flashes of greatness in a lap, where the stars align and that epic lap time appears on the dash, but I will never be able to replace 20+ years of experience (not to mention refined talent) that my coach possesses...and that's okay. My "job" at the track is very simple and straightforward...to physically and mentally challenge myself to compete and win on a bigger "stage" than regional club racing. His job, on the other hand, is very complex and multi-dimensional, with significant consequences on his/his family's livelihood...competing and winning is just a small component.
[Now my word vomit here is all in the context of the gentleman driver...there are certainly other types of ams that seek to become a pro...that is not this.]
On the subject of fast am vs. the pro, and what that does to the equation - the net effect is on the track, not the vocation. What I mean by that is if you can pair a fast am with a seasoned pro, you've got a great start to a winning season (car, crew, engineering, and luck notwithstanding) - but at the end of the race, the am is still an am, and the pro is still a pro. Why? Because driving is the pro's job, not his/her guilty pleasure. There may be a shared passion there for racing, winning, competition, etc., but when the am packs up and heads to the airport on Sunday, he/she's fulfilled (hopefully) and heading back to the real world, where a day job awaits, along with three or four days of taskers, to-do's, and emails piled up. When the pro heads to the airport, he/she is oftentimes headed to another track with another series, or off to a coaching gig, grinding away to keep the bills paid at home. (Now obviously there's the small percentage with factory rides that don't have to do diversify, but that percentage is extremely small.)
Put into the context of my own experience as a gentleman driver...my coach and I are roughly the same age, give or take a year. We both have kids that are similar ages, working spouse, etc. But twenty years ago when I was a snot-nosed Lance Corporal in the US Marines, he was wheeling a 993 RSR in the Rolex Grand Am series. Eight years later when I was getting out of the Marines and joining the civilian workforce, he was already driving in both Rolex Grand Am and the ALMS series, pulling down national wins and podiums. Fast forward another 7 or 8 years, when I was starting my company, he was winning the Daytona 24. By the time I set foot on a race track for the first time, he had been driving professionally so long that children born around the time he went "pro" were old enough to buy cigarettes. Back to the present, he's amassed 20+ years of seat time, championships, and industry experience that my relative speed (or lack thereof) could never replace. No different than if he entered my industry only a few short years ago and was expected to make a credible comparison to the experience that I've gained, culminating where I am today professionally.
Practically speaking, on any given weekend, when he and I work together, I can often get within 0.5-1.0 second of his lap times by the end of the weekend. But that's after 3-4 days of technique and car setup refinement over the course of multiple hours on track, studying video, data, etc. (not to mention all the sim prep ahead of time). In contrast, he laid down that lap time when we rolled the car off the trailer, with tires from the last race, and no setup adjustment. (I'm sure there's an eloquent Malcom Gladwell "10,000 hours" analogy to be made here if you added up all the hours of seat time he possesses.) While relative speed is a significant aspect of professional racing, it's only one. As Peter points out, it's the relative speed, consistency, and ability to manage the car, track, weather, competitors, etc., no matter how dynamic they may be. It's driving two or three different cars in the same weekend, performing at an extremely high level in each. It's structuring a season to maximize your income, exposure, and branding. It's developing and sustaining a dense network across the professional racing economy. It's making a living driving a car.
I may have flashes of greatness in a lap, where the stars align and that epic lap time appears on the dash, but I will never be able to replace 20+ years of experience (not to mention refined talent) that my coach possesses...and that's okay. My "job" at the track is very simple and straightforward...to physically and mentally challenge myself to compete and win on a bigger "stage" than regional club racing. His job, on the other hand, is very complex and multi-dimensional, with significant consequences on his/his family's livelihood...competing and winning is just a small component.
[Now my word vomit here is all in the context of the gentleman driver...there are certainly other types of ams that seek to become a pro...that is not this.]
12-16-2018, 06:33 PM
#145
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Agreed. But remember these are folks who can afford to drink the Kool-aid. This sort of thing is WAY out of the range of the vast majority of track guys. It's not like the "good old days" when you could just show up and compete. Who can afford a million-a-year hobby? Clearly there is a sub-culture out there... but, frankly, it feels like pouring dollars down the drain. If you can afford it, I highly recommend it. Most of us can't. I'm always just one bent tub away from retiring.
12-16-2018, 06:52 PM
#146
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Agreed. But remember these are folks who can afford to drink the Kool-aid. This sort of thing is WAY out of the range of the vast majority of track guys. It's not like the "good old days" when you could just show up and compete. Who can afford a million-a-year hobby? Clearly there is a sub-culture out there... but, frankly, it feels like pouring dollars down the drain. If you can afford it, I highly recommend it. Most of us can't. I'm always just one bent tub away from retiring.
Sure, it cost them some coin, but it wasn't jumping in the deep end with a season commitment or even a very expensive blue riband event like the Rolex or the 12-Hours. They just wanted the same kind of challenge, if only for a race.
Even if it didn't work out as well as they'd hoped, in almost every case, they said it was worth doing...
Last edited by ProCoach; 12-16-2018 at 07:31 PM.
12-16-2018, 08:12 PM
#147
I don't know. I know a number of good club racers who put together one-off deals for Conti (now Michelin) and PWC drives. Sometimes for as little as $20K.
Sure, it cost them some coin, but it wasn't jumping in the deep end with a season commitment or even a very expensive blue riband event like the Rolex or the 12-Hours. They just wanted the same kind of challenge, if only for a race.
Even if it didn't work out as well as they'd hoped, in almost every case, they said it was worth doing...
Sure, it cost them some coin, but it wasn't jumping in the deep end with a season commitment or even a very expensive blue riband event like the Rolex or the 12-Hours. They just wanted the same kind of challenge, if only for a race.
Even if it didn't work out as well as they'd hoped, in almost every case, they said it was worth doing...
A good friend of mine retired his PCA car this fall after finding he was spending that much (and then some) every weekend already just at PCA. Granted his car was also a POS built by a shop that ultimately, and deservedly, fell apart, but still. Might as well play in the big leagues for that money, and save himself the pain of owning and fixing/maintaining a rapidly depreciating asset at the same time.
12-16-2018, 10:31 PM
#148
Agreed. But remember these are folks who can afford to drink the Kool-aid. This sort of thing is WAY out of the range of the vast majority of track guys. It's not like the "good old days" when you could just show up and compete. Who can afford a million-a-year hobby? Clearly there is a sub-culture out there... but, frankly, it feels like pouring dollars down the drain. If you can afford it, I highly recommend it. Most of us can't. I'm always just one bent tub away from retiring.
It was simpler, IMSA just had two classes, GTO and GTU and while an entry only cost $300 on average, that's $1700 in today's money. So you could just show up, but if you didn't have a good car you'd compete at the back of the field or not even qualify and pour a lot of money down the drain. In '75, 92 cars entered the Sebring 12hr for a 72 car grid. A lot of guys went home. It was a good era to race in, but not as easy as you might think.
12-17-2018, 10:11 AM
#149
My 2pc.
I run a GT Team based in the UK and our business model is built around helping successful businessmen/women realise their childhood dream.
Most simply finance it straight out of their pocket, many with links/sponsorship through their own companies.
A very good model that we use with one of our drivers is as follows - We provide hospitality and entertainment during a race weekend for his guests. His guests are all clients of his business. They are each given 2 tickets, one for themselves and one to bring along a useful contact who is someone interested in the services his business provides, but crucially someone he doesn't already know.
Its a great way of building relationships with current clients and finding new. He only needs a couple or one big client to come out of it and it will pay for his season's racing.
I run a GT Team based in the UK and our business model is built around helping successful businessmen/women realise their childhood dream.
Most simply finance it straight out of their pocket, many with links/sponsorship through their own companies.
A very good model that we use with one of our drivers is as follows - We provide hospitality and entertainment during a race weekend for his guests. His guests are all clients of his business. They are each given 2 tickets, one for themselves and one to bring along a useful contact who is someone interested in the services his business provides, but crucially someone he doesn't already know.
Its a great way of building relationships with current clients and finding new. He only needs a couple or one big client to come out of it and it will pay for his season's racing.
12-17-2018, 10:54 AM
#150
Banned
TFBoxster, that sounds like a great model. It also makes it easier for the client's business to write off the racing costs as a marketing expense for tax purposes since it's designed to bring in new business. Wins for everyone involved. This thread keeps delivering.
