No money, no drivey
12-14-2018, 02:29 AM
#121
Rennlist Member
So much wisdom in this thread. A rennlist must read!
12-14-2018, 08:05 AM
#122
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I highly recommend this book, it's timeless:Fast Guys, Rich Guys, and Idiots
A Racing Odyssey on the Border of Obsession
Author: Sam Moses
A Racing Odyssey on the Border of Obsession
Author: Sam Moses
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
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"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
12-14-2018, 08:43 AM
#123
Rennlist Member
I remember Warren very well. I met him at Lime Rock in '73. In the first 100 mile race he got 4th and I came in 12th. In the second heat Warren came in 2nd to Gregg, which was a great achievement. I improved to 10th place. Even Peter Revson was there and got 5th. That was my third IMSA race after I started racing in '72. I don't remember any big Pro-Amateur divide. We all worked side by side in the dirt paddock, raced each other hard, then drank lots of beer afterwards. Those were great days and we had a really good time.
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/1...n-agor-passes/
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/1...n-agor-passes/
12-14-2018, 12:51 PM
#124
On the subject of fast am vs. the pro, and what that does to the equation - the net effect is on the track, not the vocation. What I mean by that is if you can pair a fast am with a seasoned pro, you've got a great start to a winning season (car, crew, engineering, and luck notwithstanding) - but at the end of the race, the am is still an am, and the pro is still a pro. Why? Because driving is the pro's job, not his/her guilty pleasure. There may be a shared passion there for racing, winning, competition, etc., but when the am packs up and heads to the airport on Sunday, he/she's fulfilled (hopefully) and heading back to the real world, where a day job awaits, along with three or four days of taskers, to-do's, and emails piled up. When the pro heads to the airport, he/she is oftentimes headed to another track with another series, or off to a coaching gig, grinding away to keep the bills paid at home. (Now obviously there's the small percentage with factory rides that don't have to do diversify, but that percentage is extremely small.)
Put into the context of my own experience as a gentleman driver...my coach and I are roughly the same age, give or take a year. We both have kids that are similar ages, working spouse, etc. But twenty years ago when I was a snot-nosed Lance Corporal in the US Marines, he was wheeling a 993 RSR in the Rolex Grand Am series. Eight years later when I was getting out of the Marines and joining the civilian workforce, he was already driving in both Rolex Grand Am and the ALMS series, pulling down national wins and podiums. Fast forward another 7 or 8 years, when I was starting my company, he was winning the Daytona 24. By the time I set foot on a race track for the first time, he had been driving professionally so long that children born around the time he went "pro" were old enough to buy cigarettes. Back to the present, he's amassed 20+ years of seat time, championships, and industry experience that my relative speed (or lack thereof) could never replace. No different than if he entered my industry only a few short years ago and was expected to make a credible comparison to the experience that I've gained, culminating where I am today professionally.
Practically speaking, on any given weekend, when he and I work together, I can often get within 0.5-1.0 second of his lap times by the end of the weekend. But that's after 3-4 days of technique and car setup refinement over the course of multiple hours on track, studying video, data, etc. (not to mention all the sim prep ahead of time). In contrast, he laid down that lap time when we rolled the car off the trailer, with tires from the last race, and no setup adjustment. (I'm sure there's an eloquent Malcom Gladwell "10,000 hours" analogy to be made here if you added up all the hours of seat time he possesses.) While relative speed is a significant aspect of professional racing, it's only one. As Peter points out, it's the relative speed, consistency, and ability to manage the car, track, weather, competitors, etc., no matter how dynamic they may be. It's driving two or three different cars in the same weekend, performing at an extremely high level in each. It's structuring a season to maximize your income, exposure, and branding. It's developing and sustaining a dense network across the professional racing economy. It's making a living driving a car.
I may have flashes of greatness in a lap, where the stars align and that epic lap time appears on the dash, but I will never be able to replace 20+ years of experience (not to mention refined talent) that my coach possesses...and that's okay. My "job" at the track is very simple and straightforward...to physically and mentally challenge myself to compete and win on a bigger "stage" than regional club racing. His job, on the other hand, is very complex and multi-dimensional, with significant consequences on his/his family's livelihood...competing and winning is just a small component.
[Now my word vomit here is all in the context of the gentleman driver...there are certainly other types of ams that seek to become a pro...that is not this.]
12-14-2018, 01:48 PM
#127
Banned
12-14-2018, 02:35 PM
#128
Warren.
Glad you were there and nice to meet again after many years. Warren’s cars were always very well prepared and he drove the heck out of them. From what I remember Warren and I ran pretty close, maybe I had a little edge in '76 and '77. The Monzas were super fast and my little RSR was getting old. Good memories from those days.
12-14-2018, 02:53 PM
#129
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Definitely +1 this book!
On the subject of fast am vs. the pro, and what that does to the equation - the net effect is on the track, not the vocation. What I mean by that is if you can pair a fast am with a seasoned pro, you've got a great start to a winning season (car, crew, engineering, and luck notwithstanding) - but at the end of the race, the am is still an am, and the pro is still a pro. Why? Because driving is the pro's job, not his/her guilty pleasure. There may be a shared passion there for racing, winning, competition, etc., but when the am packs up and heads to the airport on Sunday, he/she's fulfilled (hopefully) and heading back to the real world, where a day job awaits, along with three or four days of taskers, to-do's, and emails piled up. When the pro heads to the airport, he/she is oftentimes headed to another track with another series, or off to a coaching gig, grinding away to keep the bills paid at home. (Now obviously there's the small percentage with factory rides that don't have to do diversify, but that percentage is extremely small.)
Put into the context of my own experience as a gentleman driver...my coach and I are roughly the same age, give or take a year. We both have kids that are similar ages, working spouse, etc. But twenty years ago when I was a snot-nosed Lance Corporal in the US Marines, he was wheeling a 993 RSR in the Rolex Grand Am series. Eight years later when I was getting out of the Marines and joining the civilian workforce, he was already driving in both Rolex Grand Am and the ALMS series, pulling down national wins and podiums. Fast forward another 7 or 8 years, when I was starting my company, he was winning the Daytona 24. By the time I set foot on a race track for the first time, he had been driving professionally so long that children born around the time he went "pro" were old enough to buy cigarettes. Back to the present, he's amassed 20+ years of seat time, championships, and industry experience that my relative speed (or lack thereof) could never replace. No different than if he entered my industry only a few short years ago and was expected to make a credible comparison to the experience that I've gained, culminating where I am today professionally.
Practically speaking, on any given weekend, when he and I work together, I can often get within 0.5-1.0 second of his lap times by the end of the weekend. But that's after 3-4 days of technique and car setup refinement over the course of multiple hours on track, studying video, data, etc. (not to mention all the sim prep ahead of time). In contrast, he laid down that lap time when we rolled the car off the trailer, with tires from the last race, and no setup adjustment. (I'm sure there's an eloquent Malcom Gladwell "10,000 hours" analogy to be made here if you added up all the hours of seat time he possesses.) While relative speed is a significant aspect of professional racing, it's only one. As Peter points out, it's the relative speed, consistency, and ability to manage the car, track, weather, competitors, etc., no matter how dynamic they may be. It's driving two or three different cars in the same weekend, performing at an extremely high level in each. It's structuring a season to maximize your income, exposure, and branding. It's developing and sustaining a dense network across the professional racing economy. It's making a living driving a car.
I may have flashes of greatness in a lap, where the stars align and that epic lap time appears on the dash, but I will never be able to replace 20+ years of experience (not to mention refined talent) that my coach possesses...and that's okay. My "job" at the track is very simple and straightforward...to physically and mentally challenge myself to compete and win on a bigger "stage" than regional club racing. His job, on the other hand, is very complex and multi-dimensional, with significant consequences on his/his family's livelihood...competing and winning is just a small component.
On the subject of fast am vs. the pro, and what that does to the equation - the net effect is on the track, not the vocation. What I mean by that is if you can pair a fast am with a seasoned pro, you've got a great start to a winning season (car, crew, engineering, and luck notwithstanding) - but at the end of the race, the am is still an am, and the pro is still a pro. Why? Because driving is the pro's job, not his/her guilty pleasure. There may be a shared passion there for racing, winning, competition, etc., but when the am packs up and heads to the airport on Sunday, he/she's fulfilled (hopefully) and heading back to the real world, where a day job awaits, along with three or four days of taskers, to-do's, and emails piled up. When the pro heads to the airport, he/she is oftentimes headed to another track with another series, or off to a coaching gig, grinding away to keep the bills paid at home. (Now obviously there's the small percentage with factory rides that don't have to do diversify, but that percentage is extremely small.)
Put into the context of my own experience as a gentleman driver...my coach and I are roughly the same age, give or take a year. We both have kids that are similar ages, working spouse, etc. But twenty years ago when I was a snot-nosed Lance Corporal in the US Marines, he was wheeling a 993 RSR in the Rolex Grand Am series. Eight years later when I was getting out of the Marines and joining the civilian workforce, he was already driving in both Rolex Grand Am and the ALMS series, pulling down national wins and podiums. Fast forward another 7 or 8 years, when I was starting my company, he was winning the Daytona 24. By the time I set foot on a race track for the first time, he had been driving professionally so long that children born around the time he went "pro" were old enough to buy cigarettes. Back to the present, he's amassed 20+ years of seat time, championships, and industry experience that my relative speed (or lack thereof) could never replace. No different than if he entered my industry only a few short years ago and was expected to make a credible comparison to the experience that I've gained, culminating where I am today professionally.
Practically speaking, on any given weekend, when he and I work together, I can often get within 0.5-1.0 second of his lap times by the end of the weekend. But that's after 3-4 days of technique and car setup refinement over the course of multiple hours on track, studying video, data, etc. (not to mention all the sim prep ahead of time). In contrast, he laid down that lap time when we rolled the car off the trailer, with tires from the last race, and no setup adjustment. (I'm sure there's an eloquent Malcom Gladwell "10,000 hours" analogy to be made here if you added up all the hours of seat time he possesses.) While relative speed is a significant aspect of professional racing, it's only one. As Peter points out, it's the relative speed, consistency, and ability to manage the car, track, weather, competitors, etc., no matter how dynamic they may be. It's driving two or three different cars in the same weekend, performing at an extremely high level in each. It's structuring a season to maximize your income, exposure, and branding. It's developing and sustaining a dense network across the professional racing economy. It's making a living driving a car.
I may have flashes of greatness in a lap, where the stars align and that epic lap time appears on the dash, but I will never be able to replace 20+ years of experience (not to mention refined talent) that my coach possesses...and that's okay. My "job" at the track is very simple and straightforward...to physically and mentally challenge myself to compete and win on a bigger "stage" than regional club racing. His job, on the other hand, is very complex and multi-dimensional, with significant consequences on his/his family's livelihood...competing and winning is just a small component.
You left out that the father of your pro was no slouch either, racing Ferraris and Porsches thirty to thirty-five years ago at Daytona in the 24 and elsewhere for Ron Spangler (RIP) and Tom Milner (the father, not the pro driving son).
Your pro was also one of the top instructors at one of the best pro schools in the country for two decades, so plenty of experience getting drivers to "become comfortable being slightly uncomfortable," a necessary component for you (or any fast am) to get closer to the edge of the performance envelope...
12-14-2018, 02:55 PM
#130
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12-14-2018, 03:22 PM
#131
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this thread is so so good. thanks to all for contributing.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
12-14-2018, 03:23 PM
#132
Banned
I don't quite understand how race teams and team owners operate and why? Let's say I have a bunch of money and I love racing. Why would I start a racing team if I'm not going to do any of the driving myself (or anyone else in my family)? I may invite some rich gentlemen drivers to fill some seats and to help finance the project and maybe afford to attract some paid pros, as well. Doesn't seem I'd do it for profits, as odds are I'd be lucky to break even. What am I missing?
12-14-2018, 03:29 PM
#133
Rennlist Member
Awesome posts, I agree with almost everything posted.
I love to challenge myself by doing pro races from time to time, but have been dealing with family health issues for several years so not racing much anymore (but saved
so much money not racing....). When I can, I will be back. I don't want to enter a race that I don't think I can win, and have been SUPER lucky to have amazing opportunities available, almost
winning a few Grand-Am GS races and winning my first GTC IMSA race. If I can get within a second per minute of a pro, I am very happy, doing so without excessive risk.
I found the biggest difference was in driving a car that was not set-up to my liking (or poorly set up, not sure which!). A good pro is almost as fast as long as the wheels are attached, but it's too risky for me to push an ill-handling beast, and I don't have the skills to make them turn in when the front has no stick, etc.
I wish I could have raced in the 70s or 80s when it was so much more open and less costly, and there was no datalogging which I hate (ex software engineer, I hate computers) or coaches (they are great, but I like to use my butt and 30+ years of competing in 911s to know how I'm doing and it's worked well so far). But I'm here now, and will try to make the best of the situation. Seems Europe is a great alternative, I will have to do some racing there, I think it's cheaper even with flights and hotels. And the tracks are so much safer than the tracks here in the East.
So sorry to see many amazing pro drivers that I know out of rides, it's a tough business. I love racing, tennis, and playing guitar, but I knew it would be too tough to make a living in those professions, so they are great hobbies to do at a fairly high level (played on court with McEnroe and Courier, and on stage with famous clients- just like driving in IMSA but cheaper!).
Have fun and drive fast!
I love to challenge myself by doing pro races from time to time, but have been dealing with family health issues for several years so not racing much anymore (but saved
so much money not racing....). When I can, I will be back. I don't want to enter a race that I don't think I can win, and have been SUPER lucky to have amazing opportunities available, almost
winning a few Grand-Am GS races and winning my first GTC IMSA race. If I can get within a second per minute of a pro, I am very happy, doing so without excessive risk.
I found the biggest difference was in driving a car that was not set-up to my liking (or poorly set up, not sure which!). A good pro is almost as fast as long as the wheels are attached, but it's too risky for me to push an ill-handling beast, and I don't have the skills to make them turn in when the front has no stick, etc.
I wish I could have raced in the 70s or 80s when it was so much more open and less costly, and there was no datalogging which I hate (ex software engineer, I hate computers) or coaches (they are great, but I like to use my butt and 30+ years of competing in 911s to know how I'm doing and it's worked well so far). But I'm here now, and will try to make the best of the situation. Seems Europe is a great alternative, I will have to do some racing there, I think it's cheaper even with flights and hotels. And the tracks are so much safer than the tracks here in the East.
So sorry to see many amazing pro drivers that I know out of rides, it's a tough business. I love racing, tennis, and playing guitar, but I knew it would be too tough to make a living in those professions, so they are great hobbies to do at a fairly high level (played on court with McEnroe and Courier, and on stage with famous clients- just like driving in IMSA but cheaper!).
Have fun and drive fast!
12-14-2018, 03:33 PM
#134
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this thread is so so good. thanks to all for contributing.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
12-14-2018, 03:36 PM
#135
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Originally Posted by zmon
this thread is so so good. thanks to all for contributing.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
I have not raced any "pro" events... but in AER (american endurance racing) often times there will be "pros" scattered through the field. To echo one thing that has been said already that most stands out to me is their lap time consistency over a stint!!!!! its not like they are not experiencing traffic, etc, but you look at the time sheets in isolation and you would think that they had the track to themselves. As i race more this is something i strive to work on.
A very astute and important observation
