No money, no drivey
12-09-2018, 03:08 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Somebody has to pay.
Perhaps we just have too many intermediate level “feeder” race classes to be sustainable.
If manufacturers are paying, image and brand recognition are key but there are a lot of marketing approaches. Formula E and the IMSA BOP system.
If in the end the drivers pay the whole fare, it’s just big budget club racing. The model would need to evolve to give the paying drivers the most “value,” whatever that means.
What about series designed for TV finding - how are nascar and made-for-TV rallycross doing these days? TV and viewer revenue sounds great but it isn’t as easy to draw eyes now that everyone can watch anything anytime. If one of us could crack the code on why folks watch pro team sports so religiously and apply it to racing they’d build a dominant series and be rich like Ecclestone.
Perhaps we just have too many intermediate level “feeder” race classes to be sustainable.
If manufacturers are paying, image and brand recognition are key but there are a lot of marketing approaches. Formula E and the IMSA BOP system.
If in the end the drivers pay the whole fare, it’s just big budget club racing. The model would need to evolve to give the paying drivers the most “value,” whatever that means.
What about series designed for TV finding - how are nascar and made-for-TV rallycross doing these days? TV and viewer revenue sounds great but it isn’t as easy to draw eyes now that everyone can watch anything anytime. If one of us could crack the code on why folks watch pro team sports so religiously and apply it to racing they’d build a dominant series and be rich like Ecclestone.
12-09-2018, 03:17 PM
#32
Banned
12-09-2018, 03:40 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
12-09-2018, 05:10 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
LOL
If they find the next L5 and follow them it would be huge as the whole thing would crumble right as viewers were getting bored...
Cue some announcer with a deep dripping radio voice and some tag like “blood sex and octane....” I have no idea where the sex would come from but it’s TV so they’d probably just have the team drop by a strip club after races in parallel to almost every Jason Statham movie...
If they find the next L5 and follow them it would be huge as the whole thing would crumble right as viewers were getting bored...
Cue some announcer with a deep dripping radio voice and some tag like “blood sex and octane....” I have no idea where the sex would come from but it’s TV so they’d probably just have the team drop by a strip club after races in parallel to almost every Jason Statham movie...
12-09-2018, 08:28 PM
#35
Plenty to unpack in this thread...but allow me to give a new guy's (lengthy) perspective.
The no holds barred, insider look by Mike H. and corresponding politically-correct (but frank) commentary from Peter are both very accurate reflections of where I think we are **today** -- more on that later. That said, there are some equally accurate observations from other RLers, but lathered with a thick foam of cynicism (and dare I say envy?).
Having spent some time in both DE and club racing before moving to a "development" series (e.g., IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge), I know this cynical view is quite common (and quite unfortunate)...but contrary to popular belief, money and skill are not mutually exclusive. What I've found is the polarizing views on "pro" racing generally originate from personal experiences that do in fact imply the two are mutually exclusive. See: the hotshoe club racer who lacks the funding to try his/her luck in IMSA or PWC. Or, see: the well-funded gentleman driver in IMSA/PWC whose re-tub budget eclipses that of most teams' season budgets. In my admittedly limited, but comparatively studious, experience I'd say these are the exceptions, not the rule.
The "professional" in professional racing refers not just to the presence of for-hire drivers, but also the overall quality of experience (at least in IMSA - I can't speak for PWC). The easy observation is on the organized production itself - attend one IMSA event as a competitor and every club race thereafter will feel like a neighborhood wiffle ball game by comparison. But the harder observation, better gained by experiencing it firsthand, is the professionalism inside the paddock - engineers, coaches, manufacturer support, series support, etc. With the proper mindset, and a foundation of fundamentals, the pro paddock is worth every penny. A driver can learn more in one season of pro racing than he/she will in 10 years of club racing.
But in order to do so...there's this pesky issue of proper mindset and fundamentals. Those that lack either, or both, tend to be a flash in the pan - but really, is that different from any other sport, hobby, or vocation? The time and financial commitment to truly be at the top of the sport - regardless of series - is immense. This is why you see a variety of driver types in the paddock - well-funded gentlemen, well-funded up and comers, and paid professional drivers - each with their own motives and end-game in mind. These drivers, along with the teams, engineers, coaches, manufacturers, and to a lesser extent, sponsors, form an entirely interdependent economy - all reliant upon one another.
Paid, professional drivers are the real deal. Period, full stop. The well-funded up and comers...also the real deal (most of the time). The gentlemen drivers...mixed bag, but that's okay. The ones that have stuck around are on par with the paid professional drivers, have put in the work, and more often than not, are compensated in other ways by staying committed to it (e.g., direct marketing/advertising correlation to their affiliated businesses, etc.).
But this other pesky issue still lurks...funding. Someone has to pay the bill. Parents foot the bill for up and comers until that first paying gig comes along (or the talented few get a manufacturer scholarship to subsidize). Teams (and gentlemen drivers) foot the bill for the paid professionals. Gentlemen drivers foot their own bill. But, one of the common threads in this...uh...thread...is where are the advertisers??
Well...were an advertiser to exist, its logical entry point would be via the team or the driver; but as others have pointed out, most teams aren't staffing hoards of marketing/advertising specialists to go out and grab sponsors. Why not? Because in the current economy there are plenty of well-funded gentlemen & up and comers out there to keep the lights on. Why bring on the six-figure overhead cost for a marketing team, when you can divert a fraction of that expense to provide posh concierge services for prospective gentleman drivers and coaching/mentorship for the up and comers?
What most of you describe as the death of the sport is simply a reflection of reality...and in one man's opinion, a near-sighted business decision by some. The mass availability of funded drivers with the confidence (and/or skill) and funding has conditioned the American pro (GT) racing economy into focusing primarily on the funded gentleman or up and comer. One could argue this is why the sport has been so acutely susceptible to economic swings over time. But again, this is a reflection of today's (market) reality - not necessarily a reflection of the sport, or the quality of racing, production, and support that exists at the pro level. A narrow distinction to make, but one that bears making.
I wholly disagree with this notion that there is no place for advertisers in today's pro racing market. Are most teams structured in a way to attract/cultivate "true" sponsors? No. Do attractive conditions exists for the right sponsor? Absolutely. The problem, beyond the low-hanging fruit business model described above, is a narrow, outdated interpretation of the value for a prospective sponsor. The discussion always centers on this basic interpretation of quantitative ROI. How does a sponsorship translate to increased sales? Well...to chase that model, you've only got a narrow group of potential sponsors that can draw a clean, straight line to the wallets of race fans (i.e., car dealers, performance parts, lubricant brands, etc.). That's undergraduate level advertising. What I'm talking about is marketing, but even more abstract, branding. How does an affiliation with a race team/car/event relate to how customers & prospective customers perceive a brand? Think Red Bull, Monster Energy, Caterpillar, and so on. You could probably draw a fuzzy grey line to the wallets of race fans, but really what those brands are doing is sending a message about themselves. An image they want to conjure when you see their brand. They are placing a strategic value on their brand, not a tactical value on a sale.
Now that I've waxed poetic via my inner Jerry Maguire, what's the point? The point is, professional sports car racing is a rational economy, one with many roleplayers...all evolving to match the broader market it exists within. A small percentage supplements this race economy with an eye toward sponsors, but many don't. That's okay...today. The competition is fantastic, the events are bar none, and the experience for funded drivers is invaluable. But the sports car racing economy as a whole is ripe for diversification by increasing that focus on bringing more brands to the track, in any form, whether be it through an affiliated gentleman driver, or a "true" sponsorship.
The no holds barred, insider look by Mike H. and corresponding politically-correct (but frank) commentary from Peter are both very accurate reflections of where I think we are **today** -- more on that later. That said, there are some equally accurate observations from other RLers, but lathered with a thick foam of cynicism (and dare I say envy?).
Having spent some time in both DE and club racing before moving to a "development" series (e.g., IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge), I know this cynical view is quite common (and quite unfortunate)...but contrary to popular belief, money and skill are not mutually exclusive. What I've found is the polarizing views on "pro" racing generally originate from personal experiences that do in fact imply the two are mutually exclusive. See: the hotshoe club racer who lacks the funding to try his/her luck in IMSA or PWC. Or, see: the well-funded gentleman driver in IMSA/PWC whose re-tub budget eclipses that of most teams' season budgets. In my admittedly limited, but comparatively studious, experience I'd say these are the exceptions, not the rule.
The "professional" in professional racing refers not just to the presence of for-hire drivers, but also the overall quality of experience (at least in IMSA - I can't speak for PWC). The easy observation is on the organized production itself - attend one IMSA event as a competitor and every club race thereafter will feel like a neighborhood wiffle ball game by comparison. But the harder observation, better gained by experiencing it firsthand, is the professionalism inside the paddock - engineers, coaches, manufacturer support, series support, etc. With the proper mindset, and a foundation of fundamentals, the pro paddock is worth every penny. A driver can learn more in one season of pro racing than he/she will in 10 years of club racing.
But in order to do so...there's this pesky issue of proper mindset and fundamentals. Those that lack either, or both, tend to be a flash in the pan - but really, is that different from any other sport, hobby, or vocation? The time and financial commitment to truly be at the top of the sport - regardless of series - is immense. This is why you see a variety of driver types in the paddock - well-funded gentlemen, well-funded up and comers, and paid professional drivers - each with their own motives and end-game in mind. These drivers, along with the teams, engineers, coaches, manufacturers, and to a lesser extent, sponsors, form an entirely interdependent economy - all reliant upon one another.
Paid, professional drivers are the real deal. Period, full stop. The well-funded up and comers...also the real deal (most of the time). The gentlemen drivers...mixed bag, but that's okay. The ones that have stuck around are on par with the paid professional drivers, have put in the work, and more often than not, are compensated in other ways by staying committed to it (e.g., direct marketing/advertising correlation to their affiliated businesses, etc.).
But this other pesky issue still lurks...funding. Someone has to pay the bill. Parents foot the bill for up and comers until that first paying gig comes along (or the talented few get a manufacturer scholarship to subsidize). Teams (and gentlemen drivers) foot the bill for the paid professionals. Gentlemen drivers foot their own bill. But, one of the common threads in this...uh...thread...is where are the advertisers??
Well...were an advertiser to exist, its logical entry point would be via the team or the driver; but as others have pointed out, most teams aren't staffing hoards of marketing/advertising specialists to go out and grab sponsors. Why not? Because in the current economy there are plenty of well-funded gentlemen & up and comers out there to keep the lights on. Why bring on the six-figure overhead cost for a marketing team, when you can divert a fraction of that expense to provide posh concierge services for prospective gentleman drivers and coaching/mentorship for the up and comers?
What most of you describe as the death of the sport is simply a reflection of reality...and in one man's opinion, a near-sighted business decision by some. The mass availability of funded drivers with the confidence (and/or skill) and funding has conditioned the American pro (GT) racing economy into focusing primarily on the funded gentleman or up and comer. One could argue this is why the sport has been so acutely susceptible to economic swings over time. But again, this is a reflection of today's (market) reality - not necessarily a reflection of the sport, or the quality of racing, production, and support that exists at the pro level. A narrow distinction to make, but one that bears making.
I wholly disagree with this notion that there is no place for advertisers in today's pro racing market. Are most teams structured in a way to attract/cultivate "true" sponsors? No. Do attractive conditions exists for the right sponsor? Absolutely. The problem, beyond the low-hanging fruit business model described above, is a narrow, outdated interpretation of the value for a prospective sponsor. The discussion always centers on this basic interpretation of quantitative ROI. How does a sponsorship translate to increased sales? Well...to chase that model, you've only got a narrow group of potential sponsors that can draw a clean, straight line to the wallets of race fans (i.e., car dealers, performance parts, lubricant brands, etc.). That's undergraduate level advertising. What I'm talking about is marketing, but even more abstract, branding. How does an affiliation with a race team/car/event relate to how customers & prospective customers perceive a brand? Think Red Bull, Monster Energy, Caterpillar, and so on. You could probably draw a fuzzy grey line to the wallets of race fans, but really what those brands are doing is sending a message about themselves. An image they want to conjure when you see their brand. They are placing a strategic value on their brand, not a tactical value on a sale.
Now that I've waxed poetic via my inner Jerry Maguire, what's the point? The point is, professional sports car racing is a rational economy, one with many roleplayers...all evolving to match the broader market it exists within. A small percentage supplements this race economy with an eye toward sponsors, but many don't. That's okay...today. The competition is fantastic, the events are bar none, and the experience for funded drivers is invaluable. But the sports car racing economy as a whole is ripe for diversification by increasing that focus on bringing more brands to the track, in any form, whether be it through an affiliated gentleman driver, or a "true" sponsorship.
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Janton9736 (11-16-2019)
12-09-2018, 09:07 PM
#36
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Excellent post, Rob! You've made it work for you, which is what it's all about. And ALL that matters, in the end!
Not only have you found more than what you were looking for, you've done well. You've raised your game and leapfrogged many.
A great example of "how to do it right."
I remember our conversation before this season started. You had legitimate questions about your aspirations being somewhat quixotic.
But I told you that you had what it took, in my estimation. And that EVERY driver you'd be on track with bled red, just like you do.
You had every RIGHT to be there. THAT'S why I think this placing of a majority of "pros" up on a pedestal is not productive.
It's been fun to watch your success!
Not only have you found more than what you were looking for, you've done well. You've raised your game and leapfrogged many.
A great example of "how to do it right."
I remember our conversation before this season started. You had legitimate questions about your aspirations being somewhat quixotic.
But I told you that you had what it took, in my estimation. And that EVERY driver you'd be on track with bled red, just like you do.
You had every RIGHT to be there. THAT'S why I think this placing of a majority of "pros" up on a pedestal is not productive.
It's been fun to watch your success!
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
12-09-2018, 09:22 PM
#37
Excellent post, Rob! You've made it work for you, which is what it's all about. And ALL that matters, in the end!
Not only have you found more than what you were looking for, you've done well. You've raised your game and leapfrogged many.
A great example of "how to do it right."
I remember our conversation before this season started. You had legitimate questions about your aspirations being somewhat quixotic.
But I told you that you had what it took, in my estimation. And that EVERY driver you'd be on track with bled red, just like you do.
You had every RIGHT to be there. THAT'S why I think this placing of a majority of "pros" up on a pedestal is not productive.
It's been fun to watch your success!
Not only have you found more than what you were looking for, you've done well. You've raised your game and leapfrogged many.
A great example of "how to do it right."
I remember our conversation before this season started. You had legitimate questions about your aspirations being somewhat quixotic.
But I told you that you had what it took, in my estimation. And that EVERY driver you'd be on track with bled red, just like you do.
You had every RIGHT to be there. THAT'S why I think this placing of a majority of "pros" up on a pedestal is not productive.
It's been fun to watch your success!
12-09-2018, 11:51 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
I think the bitterness is simply a reflection of the plainness of the fact that racing talent plus a huge amount of direct effort isn’t enough to get to the top level - a driver can’t just be a driver. Instead, talent and effort plus a huge pile of money or the ability to acquire it are all required. The bitter part is often because just the money alone will get one in the door but the others, eh, less likely, work your way up.
On the the other hand, most pro sports take the most talented guy who worked extremely hard and received great coaching. Soccer, basketball, that sort of thing. Money isn’t a huge and overpowering factor like in high level auto racing.
Perhaps motorcycle racing is closer to that ideal.
At at least it’s not like we’re aspiring to America’s Cup.
On the the other hand, most pro sports take the most talented guy who worked extremely hard and received great coaching. Soccer, basketball, that sort of thing. Money isn’t a huge and overpowering factor like in high level auto racing.
Perhaps motorcycle racing is closer to that ideal.
At at least it’s not like we’re aspiring to America’s Cup.
12-10-2018, 01:10 AM
#39
I think the bitterness is simply a reflection of the plainness of the fact that racing talent plus a huge amount of direct effort isn’t enough to get to the top level - a driver can’t just be a driver. Instead, talent and effort plus a huge pile of money or the ability to acquire it are all required. The bitter part is often because just the money alone will get one in the door but the others, eh, less likely, work your way up.
On the the other hand, most pro sports take the most talented guy who worked extremely hard and received great coaching. Soccer, basketball, that sort of thing. Money isn’t a huge and overpowering factor like in high level auto racing.
Perhaps motorcycle racing is closer to that ideal.
At at least it’s not like we’re aspiring to America’s Cup.
On the the other hand, most pro sports take the most talented guy who worked extremely hard and received great coaching. Soccer, basketball, that sort of thing. Money isn’t a huge and overpowering factor like in high level auto racing.
Perhaps motorcycle racing is closer to that ideal.
At at least it’s not like we’re aspiring to America’s Cup.
A lot of kids destined for pro sports pay for support along the way - private workouts and training, travel leagues, nutritionists, extra coaching, etc. - there's an entire micro-industry built around it, just like there is for drivers. But again, the truly plain fact is ***** are cheap, and they don't have a cost tail associated with them.
Now I think what people are conflating, with this bitterness, is not just the fact that the sporting equipment costs orders of magnitude more, but the obvious distinction between pro driver and gentleman driver. Kids idolize professional athletes (regardless of sport) because their actual, full-time job is to play a game...to do what they love. The lucky few who show talent early put in the work at a young age and climb their way to the pros, oftentimes with a little help along the way (parents' support, coaches, etc.) - none of this is any different between ball sports and racing.
Gentleman drivers, on the other hand are paying to do what they love. They are not professional athletes any more than the CEO of Nike working out with the Trail Blazers on the weekend. Now if the Nike CEO takes it seriously because he's spending good money for the opportunity (and wants to make them sweat), he probably gets a trainer of his own...maybe more than one. Now of course no trainer in the country can make up for 10-20 years of experience, but maybe he's got enough athleticism to work with and be a modest baller.
We don't begrudge him for his effort, or his means, any more than we should begrudge the gentleman driver. They have a day job, and to all their chagrin (myself included), it is not driving a race car.
12-10-2018, 01:56 AM
#40
Banned
Many more people watch basketball than racing (except F1 and maybe nascar).
When enough eyeballs watch a sport, it pays for sponsors to advertise there, and enough outside money comes in that demands and funds the pure sports talent. No room for “gentlemen” players there.
When not enough eyeballs watch, it does NOT pay for sponsors to advertise, NO outside money comes in, so most drivers have to pay for their own dreams. Much more room for “gentlemen” players there.
When enough eyeballs watch a sport, it pays for sponsors to advertise there, and enough outside money comes in that demands and funds the pure sports talent. No room for “gentlemen” players there.
When not enough eyeballs watch, it does NOT pay for sponsors to advertise, NO outside money comes in, so most drivers have to pay for their own dreams. Much more room for “gentlemen” players there.
12-10-2018, 07:05 AM
#41
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Gentleman drivers, on the other hand are paying to do what they love. They are not professional athletes any more than the CEO of Nike working out with the Trail Blazers on the weekend. Now if the Nike CEO takes it seriously because he's spending good money for the opportunity (and wants to make them sweat), he probably gets a trainer of his own...maybe more than one. Now of course no trainer in the country can make up for 10-20 years of experience, but maybe he's got enough athleticism to work with and be a modest baller.
We don't begrudge him for his effort, or his means, any more than we should begrudge the gentleman driver. They have a day job, and to all their chagrin (myself included), it is not driving a race car.
I've often wondered how this racing thing sustained itself. I appreciate the insight.
Is this the difference between Nascar and sports car racing? Seems like Nascar woos real sponsor money and fans. Can anyone write a check to drive on Nascar team? Interesting.
12-10-2018, 07:53 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by hf1
Many more people watch basketball than racing (except F1 and maybe nascar).
When enough eyeballs watch a sport, it pays for sponsors to advertise there, and enough outside money comes in that demands and funds the pure sports talent. No room for “gentlemen” players there.
When not enough eyeballs watch, it does NOT pay for sponsors to advertise, NO outside money comes in, so most drivers have to pay for their own dreams. Much more room for “gentlemen” players there.
When enough eyeballs watch a sport, it pays for sponsors to advertise there, and enough outside money comes in that demands and funds the pure sports talent. No room for “gentlemen” players there.
When not enough eyeballs watch, it does NOT pay for sponsors to advertise, NO outside money comes in, so most drivers have to pay for their own dreams. Much more room for “gentlemen” players there.
12-10-2018, 07:55 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Sven76
Corporate sponsors in Europe? What class / series? There are some in the highly professional classes such as DTM, but for most series it is the game of gentlemen drivers funding the team or any pro / am combination. I am considering to go down the route of racing for quite a while, spoke to all of the instructors I’ve worked with and and many more, they all need to work hard to make a living and none can rely on corporate sponsors. For me, I will most probably go with one of the cheaper series / lesser cars, because even GT4/3 is not enjoying much publicity beyond die hard fans and it comes with ridiculous cost (I couldn’t afford anyway).
12-10-2018, 09:41 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
This thread makes for some great reading, lots of great info here. I dont think there is any bitterness here from people who cant play in the big ring. I do think most people here would agree its the driver with the most talent that should be out there and not the driver with the biggest bank roll. Another way to look at it, what satisfaction does one get from buying there ride knowing there is a better driver out there that can drive circles around them? If its a hobby and you are there only to be in on the big stage its one thing but it has to play mind tricks on some of these guys who are only there because of the mighty dollar. What happens when the dollar isnt there anymore, these Am drivers who are successful business men may wake up one day and say dam im spending all this money for what?
One thing that has not been mentioned here in regards to sponsors/marketing partners is brand ambassadors. If you look at the social media platforms today, plenty of companies are advertising with people who use their product in exchange for reviews, youtube blogs etc.. They reach targeted audiences very quickly and almost weekly if not daily. I know a company who partnered up with a race team, basically they used the race as a place to bring employees and customers for a fun day of mixing business with pleasure. It was more of a team building exercise than it was about marketing. He explained to me it would be rare for them to gain any clients from sponsoring the race but doing something outside the box worked for his company on other levels.
One thing that has not been mentioned here in regards to sponsors/marketing partners is brand ambassadors. If you look at the social media platforms today, plenty of companies are advertising with people who use their product in exchange for reviews, youtube blogs etc.. They reach targeted audiences very quickly and almost weekly if not daily. I know a company who partnered up with a race team, basically they used the race as a place to bring employees and customers for a fun day of mixing business with pleasure. It was more of a team building exercise than it was about marketing. He explained to me it would be rare for them to gain any clients from sponsoring the race but doing something outside the box worked for his company on other levels.
12-10-2018, 09:46 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
