Otto Mechanic

PS: I'll give bad odds (for you that is ) you spent a bit more on the car before you put it on the track? I say this only because I bought my S2 donor in very good to excellent condition for $7500, but then had to ship it across the country to my shop. Since then I've put about $10,000 into the drive train and suspension. Safety systems will likely be another $10K and I won't even start on the motor for another season or two.

Folks who think an SP3 Stock class 944 is a cheap build are in for a surprise...

Regards,

Akunob

Otto Mechanic

Not insulting my intelligence at all, you're questioning my practical experience. I don't have experience with a HANS. All I have to work with is theory, I've never, ever used one. Now I find I must if I'm to comply with PCA rules. I have to admit I've been "sold" on the HANS idea, which, near as I can tell, is also based mostly on theory. My fear of the system may be groundless in this respect.

Is there some sort of "quick release" that gets my helmet (and therefore head) out of the car without me having to fiddle with connectors? From what I've seen I still need to unhook?

Regards,

LuigiVampa

Most of us can and prefer to get in and out with the HANS still attached to the helmet. They do sell quick release pulls that can uncouple the helmet from the HANS but I have never seen the need for it.

It is good to practice getting out with your eyes closed to make sure you can do it if the cabin is filled with smoke. From the amount of driving I do getting out is pretty second nature to me and hope never to have to put it to the test!

Manifold

OK, what should PCA recommend then?

And please stop inventing your own facts. Take a look at the weight of helmets here: https://www.ogracing.com/driver/helmets. Standard helmets without those fancy materials are typically under ~3.5 pounds. Good luck finding a 10 pound helmet.

No need to engage me in conversation, we can't have a productive conversation if you don't know basic facts and are unable to offer data to support your position.

Last I checked, pro drivers in Porsche closed-cockpit race cars use harnesses, helmets, and HNR.

Otto Mechanic

Thanks Luigi, it's good to know it's easy to get out of the car with the HANS still attached to the shoulder braces. That's one of the reasons I'll be using quick release camlock buckles on the harnesses.

Still, while wearing a different hat, I've had the experience as a SAR diver and K9 SAR operator, of finding difficult extractions on my plate and, as I understand, the HANS unit does restrict motion of the head (that's what it's designed to do), so if you're trying to extract an unconscious body from something, having that motion restricted could create a difficulty and so a delay. It might well complicate placing a cervical collar.

Glad to know there's a quick release system. I hope it's been standardized because I'm nearly certain the general population of EMTs who'll be yanking our sorry butts out of a burning car won't be well versed on all of the commercial variations available

Regards,

Otto Mechanic

I think I just told you what I thought the PCA should recommend; use of HANS in 4+ harness configurations.

I'm not inventing facts. My point is that, as a former statistician and professional industrial experiment designer, with a focus on product reliability and serviceability (fitness for intended use) I haven't discovered empirical support for HANS (no facts).

Notwithstanding, I have become convinced their use is a good idea, in much the same fashion advocates of carbon footprint reduction have become convinced; I'm guilty of being a victim of the "precautionary principal". In this example I feel no guilt since any downside to that decision will only effect me personally as long as I don't force others to my conclusion.

I have no personal experience with HANS devices and, due to my background, I have questions. I don't think the topic is ripe for regulation at this point in time. Strong recommendations are appropriate.

That's my professional opinion.

Sincerely,

Glyndellis

Otto Mechanic

Could I suggest you take a ride to your local racing equipment shop and take a look at a Hans or similar? You can also see them in any F1 or NASCAR coverage.
As you can see from the attached image (courtesy of https://sites.psu.edu/johnsedsgn100/...safety-device/), you can walk around with the HNS attached to your helmet. Not really any difference getting in and out of the car with an HNS or without. The helmet is much more bulky than the HNS.

Manifold

If you do literature review, you'll find lots of empirical test data for head/neck restraint devices. Most of the research has been done by experts in biomedical engineering. I've read many of those papers (many were published by SAE). Until you've done that homework, perhaps it would be appropriate to not voice uninformed opinions.

Reading assignment: https://www.sae.org/publications/books/content/pt-160/

JarheadGT3

+1 Same here. I'm in full kit when I get in the car, ditto coming out. When I first started club racing (NASA), being able to exit the car in under 15 seconds was a requirement to get your license...and is also randomly tested in post-race tech. That's fully belted in and as-raced conditions. While yes, the HANS by definition limits head movement, it's a non-issue in an emergency exit - even in fully halo'd seats.

Otto Mechanic

No doubt. I have at least that much experience.

You may well be (and probably are) able to move about comfortably with an attached HANS. But how easy will it be for an EMT to place a cervical collar on you before yanking your limp body out of an upside down car that's burning? Consider that?

Look, I'm not against using HANS, or even strongly recommending their use. I'm against requiring their use. Two very different things?

Regards,

Otto Mechanic

OK. I read the abstract. If you think for some obscure reason I'll pay you or anyone else $82 for them to tell me what I know already and they openly admit in the first sentance of the abstract you're seriously confused.

"For many years, the evolution of safety improvements in motorsports was the result of a combination of science and perceived safe practices. Most safety developments were not based on rigorous laboratory testing, but rather on intuition and a “let’s try it and see what happens” approach."

This is my entire point. Thank you for providing corroborating evidence.

Sincerely,

hf1

Otto Mechanic

Perhaps true, I no longer investigate behind paywalled publications like the one you've cited. Those days are gone. But I've found I can still use my own brain to detect nonsense. Who would have guessed? I can say that, without doubt, this cite doesn't support your premise as far as I can tell. It seems, from a pure argument perspective, you've just shot yourself in the foot?

You never answered my question? How are you connected to experimental statistics? What's your background?

Otto Mechanic

I'm sure I'll agree. I'm not arguing that. I hope you haven't become confused? I support the use of HANS devices and intend to install HANS compatible equipment in my car.

The issue is not whether or not it's a good idea, it's whether or not it's a good rule? There's a difference.