DTMiller

No one is taking away your freedom. You want to drive on track? Find a track and call them about renting it. They are gonna require you have an insurance policy. Find an insurer who will allow you to run no helmets with open cans of fuel in the passenger seat with drivers smoking cigars and BAM you're free to do so.

But unless and until you either own the track or rent the track and foot the bill, you have to abide by the rules of the people who do. That isn't an erosion of your freedoms.

LuigiVampa

Your best argument is now a passive aggressive patriotic diatribe against those in favor of the HANS device requirement?

I can't help but wonder if those tens of thousands of DE laps were on iRacing or in real life because if those laps were done in real life you either drive with the slowest people on earth or the luckiest!

SToronto

I heard back from my Region. Equal restraints.

So appears like a no go workaround for those with OE LWB. Have to have same harness in both seats. No Schroth 4 pt in passenger unless driver runs the same.

Solution is either cut passenger seat or use 3 pts until solo.

996AE

Thank you Mr. Obvious.

Cheers

Otto Mechanic

Luigi, over the years I've come to respect your opinions on racing, you seem to have more than enough experience to offer sage and valuable information, but in this example I have to say snark doesn't become you. Honestly, not because I disagree with your position, but because you've reduced the argument to essentially calling your opponents juvenile extremist nutjobs, as have a few others in the pack.

The problem started with helmets in closed cockpits, which don't serve nearly the purpose they do in open cockpits or motorcycles. They were seen as a harmless and mildly beneficial safety enhancement but it was a "gut" analysis that wasn't really based on empirical data. The result was people started getting their heads torn off in accidents because your neck isn't designed to handle rapid velocity changes with an additional 5 or 10 pounds on it. No one really notice this until folks started dying.

The problem worsened with the addition of 4+ point harness systems. 2 and 3 point restraint systems allowed some upper body motion that could reduce stress on the basal skull; 4+ harnesses didn't. So the problem worsened to the point the HANS system was invented. I think that's a decent summary of the historic development.

What new problems will the HANS introduce? Some obvious problems might surround limiting the drivers ability to leave the car quickly. Just one example. The point is the pursuit of increased safety has, historically, been fraught with unintended consequences. This is not, in any way shape or form, a science. Because of that, anyone participating in the sport ends up being a voluntary lab rat, and I'd like to stress the word voluntary.

The problem with any mandate in a situation like this is its being imposed on voluntary lab rats who generally have as much if not more experience and qualified opinion on the subject as the folks trying to impose the regulations. For that reason alone the sport should resist regulation at this point in development. If you require a HANS, what happens when someone develops a better idea? There's not enough data to justify requiring personal safety equipment. Making strong recommendations might be warranted, but not dyed in the wool rules. It's unwarranted and disrespects the individuals who are the people with lives at stake.

If this were something that effected the safety of the general population (other participants) things would be different, but that isn't the case. My use of a HANS on track has no effect on your safety. It should be completely my decision.

I'm interested in this debate only because I'm currently designing the safety systems for my next mixed use DE car, a replica of the 1989-91 944 S2 Club Sport. It's a car that makes about 200 hp. I plan to preserve my ability to operate it both on the street and at DE events, it's not a race car. I expect to install a rear half cage/roll bar with a harness bar, 5+ point harnesses in both seats, removable HALO wings (Sparco Ergo) and fire suppression. Interior/exterior electrical cutouts. I won't be installing a front cage on this car unless I can find one that will bolt in and out quickly and easily for events. I consider this a reasonable design for my goals, my level of driving and my car's abilities. Someone mentioned it was silly to argue about a $450 HANS when they were driving a $100,000 car; I'm not driving a $100,000, 650 hp, dedicated track machine. I still plan to use a HANS rig in it when I'm on the track.

Manifold

Again, what policy are you advocating that PCA adopt? People can do whatever they want with safety gear? No helmets required? Harness ok if no helmet is used? What?

And BTW, helmets weigh closer to 3 pounds, not 5 to 10 pounds. Might be helpful if you got the facts right. And please give us data showing that people started dying in closed cockpit cars with 2- or 3-pt restraints when helmets started being used due to the added mass of the helmet.

Otto Mechanic

That's the theory behind the HANS. There isn't any data to support it. That's my point.

LuigiVampa

Otto - I very much appreciate the compliment at the beginning of your post. Thank you.

First, I must disappoint you a little bit. I try to keep my arguments logical but to tell you the honest truth I usually bathe myself in snark! It's how I roll. Plus to show my general level of maturity, I was merely calling out 996AE's passive aggressive post, not the substance of his argument, which, on the face of it, was pretty weak as well. "I haven't seen many crashes so they don't happen." ....please.

I'm a libertarian at heart so I sorta get where 996AE and others like you are coming from. That being said, I have also worked my whole life in the legal profession, and a chunk of that was in insurance litigation. Everyone can start "blaming the lawyers" but the truth is lawsuits, and the prevention of lawsuits, have advanced safety in society. You think all these companies decided to innovate safety for the benefit of consumers?

The bottom line, and this point has been made several times in this thread, is that in order to get insurance for a track day (a requirement), and keep the premium low, insurance companies are going to mandate what is required. In the instant matter I'm not certain if PCA is getting out in front of a perceived liability or if it was a mandate of an insurance company. I doubt that it was just a random thought on how to make things safer.

I think the cost of a HNR is a small price to pay to make sure everyone stays safe when they have made the decision to put belts in their car. Don't want an HNR? Don't pay the money to put belts in your car.

Libertarianism does have its limits. I believe it was Max Mosley talking about the duality of safety and speed. He said that if you offered drivers the choice of two cars, one being completely safe, and another one which was less safe but 2 seconds a lap quicker, the drivers would all choose the quicker car.

The very nature of our sport means we all take calculated risks because it would be safer to watch racing on TV. Accordingly, there must occasionally be an adult in the room to decide what safety items must be mandated and I think PCA got this one right.

Lastly, we are probably way too small of a data set to get the kind of accurate data everyone is screaming for. We have to rely on the testing and videos which show what an impact does to a head, belted into a harness, with a HNR. Again, I think PCA got it right.

PS - I bought my HANS device when all I drove was a 944 that I paid $6k to buy.

Otto Mechanic

I think I've made that clear; the PCA should develop a passive policy of recommendation rather than regulation.

Your age is showing.

With the advent of advanced materials like Kevlar and spun graphite (carbon fiber) weight has been reduced over the past 50 years. Carbon fiber helmets are light, they aren't in broad use due to their cost. Cheap helmets are still heavy.

Before I engage you in this conversation again I'd like to know who I'm talking to out of respect. How much practical experience do you have with designing industrial experiments aimed at measuring product effectiveness and reliability?

JarheadGT3

"FREEEEEDOOOOM!!!"

*yawn*

Rennlist, you've been trolled. If someone doesn't like PCA's HANS rule, they have the constitutionally-provided "freedom" to chose a different DE organization. Just like PCA has the constitutionally-provided "freedom" to levy whatever rule they deem necessary for their organized DE events. Pretty basic stuff.

P.S. I like my head, and my neck. I **really** like when my head and neck are attached. I use a HANS.

SToronto

Interesting reading all the discussion.

Anyway, seems like some experienced folks here.

Given I'll likely have to use 3 pts until solo. Can somebody advise me of a HNR system that is a benefit for 3 pt? I think I've seen references to a Hybrid system?


Thanks!

Glyndellis

I switched from my street car (convertible with 3 points) to a more dedicated (but street legal) DE car last year to add safety. For my E46, I agree that the cost of the roll bar, harnesses and seats was approaching the original cost of the car.
Even in a cheap car like mine, with street tires and relatively low running costs, the HNS represents the same cost of one DE day when you consider registration fee, gas, fuel. I thought it was a good idea and I hope I never need it.

Otto Mechanic

Luigi - just a quick note, your reply deserves a more considered response but I wanted to let you know this comment pointed out that I hadn't mentioned I will be using a HANS on this car, even though the whole build is likely to cost me less than $25K.

I'm not convinced there's empirical data to support the HANS and I'll get into that more later, but I am convinced there's enough anecdotal data to make it a good plan. I really am wrestling with "will I have the wherewithal in a major impact to unhook my head before I try to get out of a burning car" problem, but the last time I was involved in a major incident (931 v. Fiat 124) I lost consciousness and was pulled out of the roof by EMTs on the scene so the question might really come down to, "can they deal with unhooking my head while pulling me out of the wreck"? I'm not certain. But I'm going with HANS anyway.

DTMiller

If it's so obvious, why are making claims/demands to the contrary?

JarheadGT3

Otto...not trying to insult your intelligence here, but you do know how the HANS works right? There is no "unhook my head" before exiting the car, unless for some reason you plan on taking your helmet off while inside said burning car.