NEW PCA Best Practices for DE (Rant!)
12-06-2018, 02:45 PM
#46
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I am just starting to think about outfitting my car better because I want to be safe. It's not a statement of how experienced or good I am, I'm new. My thought was to buy a Hans for my instructor, now I can't have both sizes but can have one. They can use it if they don't have one. The rest of the equipment would already be in the car. Only other thing is their helmet would need the right fittings and they would need to have the will to use it.
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12-06-2018, 03:09 PM
#47
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I am just starting to think about outfitting my car better because I want to be safe. It's not a statement of how experienced or good I am, I'm new. My thought was to buy a Hans for my instructor, now I can't have both sizes but can have one. They can use it if they don't have one. The rest of the equipment would already be in the car. Only other thing is their helmet would need the right fittings and they would need to have the will to use it.
12-06-2018, 03:40 PM
#48
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Talked with multiple PCA regions, that offer loaner helmets, loaner NextGen units have already been discussed to be purchased to support the INST ranks to continue to do what they do today (ride-alongs). So if its an issue of cost/access for student ride-alongs, I can see that being solved pretty easily.
Anyone needing a group buy discount on nextGen/Hans, I am sure something with Simpson or other supporting vendors could be arranged. Every year at the Indy HPDE event, we get great deals (and service) from Simpson on safety gear.
And I will add, having Chair'd regional PCA track events, I welcome any rules that raise safety and lower the risk, if it costs a few more shekels so be it. As a Chair I support this rule change. I have dealt with a few (and a few is too many) ambulance runs at HPDE events after yard-sale level barrier impacts by drivers, multiple (post inital air bag deployment) impacts are the norm - too much safety doesn't yet exist. What is your head and neck worth? Be safe, have fun.
Anyone needing a group buy discount on nextGen/Hans, I am sure something with Simpson or other supporting vendors could be arranged. Every year at the Indy HPDE event, we get great deals (and service) from Simpson on safety gear.
And I will add, having Chair'd regional PCA track events, I welcome any rules that raise safety and lower the risk, if it costs a few more shekels so be it. As a Chair I support this rule change. I have dealt with a few (and a few is too many) ambulance runs at HPDE events after yard-sale level barrier impacts by drivers, multiple (post inital air bag deployment) impacts are the norm - too much safety doesn't yet exist. What is your head and neck worth? Be safe, have fun.
12-06-2018, 03:43 PM
#49
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I can't stand PCA. Their events are horrible. In the name of "safety" it's not fun anymore. So what did I do? I stopped going to their events. Even got a friend to stop going! 
Only NASA events ever since and never looked back! If they can put on a safe and enjoyable event, PCA should be able to. If not, oh well. Doesn't affect me anymore.
All this safety nonsense is actually silly when you think about it. You're more likely to get into a car accident on the way to and from the track than you are actually ON the track, I wish more people would understand this!
Many people got into car accidents just this morning on their way to work, some who died, yet there's no talk about commuters wearing helmets. Smh
LOL!!! Harnesses have expiration dates yet seatbelts don't! Too funny!!
Only NASA events ever since and never looked back! If they can put on a safe and enjoyable event, PCA should be able to. If not, oh well. Doesn't affect me anymore.
All this safety nonsense is actually silly when you think about it. You're more likely to get into a car accident on the way to and from the track than you are actually ON the track, I wish more people would understand this!
Many people got into car accidents just this morning on their way to work, some who died, yet there's no talk about commuters wearing helmets. Smh
LOL!!! Harnesses have expiration dates yet seatbelts don't! Too funny!!
12-06-2018, 03:59 PM
#50
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This is not apples to apples. You cannot compare the way you drive on the track with the way you drive on the NJ Turnpike (well, maybe you can), but not an apples to apples comparison.
I, for one, am damn glad I am wearing a Hans and a harness on the track, airbags or not. I have seen plenty of crashes (not my car but at events I am at) where the car is completely wrecked, and the driver, and passenger if there is one, walk away from a crash that should have otherwise killed them both.
Safety has to come first.
You have the right idea. If you don't like the safety rules of one group, then run with someone else. You have made that choice and it works for you. Not everyone here would make that same choice.
12-06-2018, 04:30 PM
#51
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This frankly smacks of what I like to call "nannyism"; the overweaning desire to do something to me, against my better judgement, "for my own good", as if I were a complete moron incapable of assessing my own risk. No matter how you slice it, some activities we pursue for recreation just aren't safe and no amount of equipment will make them safe.
Something close to 30,000 people are killed annually on US roads alone. When it happens, we close the course and clean up the mess and I speak from the experience of having been one of those people who had to close the course and clean up the mess while working as a volunteer field medic for my municipal police department. There aren't even near that number killed in closed course car racing. Not even close. So you tell me, what drives this nonsense?
There's nothing wrong with laying out recommended safety equipment and requiring a signature stating I have read and understood those recommendations. It works for everyone else.
Last edited by Otto Mechanic; 12-06-2018 at 04:50 PM.
12-06-2018, 04:42 PM
#52
I'm in....
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Maybe I should explain better then. I'm a skydiver, technical deep wreck diver, certified closed circuit mixed gas diver, hang glider pilot and rock climber. I've raced cars and horses at organized events my entire life. Liability waivers are enforceable and that's why they exist. PCA doesn't even ask me to wear a $35 nomex suit for DE events. Why the concern over a HANS device?
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12-06-2018, 04:56 PM
#53
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It either makes sense or it doesn't. Near as I can tell it makes no sense and actually works to discourage the use of more advanced safety systems. It's already been pointed out there haven't been any safety studies demonstrating helmets work with airbags and three point belts.
12-06-2018, 05:15 PM
#54
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Scott, that's not an appeal to logic, it's just typical herd thinking. If all your friends...
It either makes sense or it doesn't. Near as I can tell it makes no sense and actually works to discourage the use of more advanced safety systems. It's already been pointed out there haven't been any safety studies demonstrating helmets work with airbags and three point belts.
It either makes sense or it doesn't. Near as I can tell it makes no sense and actually works to discourage the use of more advanced safety systems. It's already been pointed out there haven't been any safety studies demonstrating helmets work with airbags and three point belts.
12-06-2018, 05:29 PM
#55
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Maybe I should explain better then. I'm a skydiver, technical deep wreck diver, certified closed circuit mixed gas diver, hang glider pilot and rock climber. I've raced cars and horses at organized events my entire life. Liability waivers are enforceable and that's why they exist. PCA doesn't even ask me to wear a $35 nomex suit for DE events. Why the concern over a HANS device?
This frankly smacks of what I like to call "nannyism"; the overweaning desire to do something to me, against my better judgement, "for my own good", as if I were a complete moron incapable of assessing my own risk. No matter how you slice it, some activities we pursue for recreation just aren't safe and no amount of equipment will make them safe.
Something close to 30,000 people are killed annually on US roads alone. When it happens, we close the course and clean up the mess and I speak from the experience of having been one of those people who had to close the course and clean up the mess while working as a volunteer field medic for my municipal police department. There aren't even near that number killed in closed course car racing. Not even close. So you tell me, what drives this nonsense?
There's nothing wrong with laying out recommended safety equipment and requiring a signature stating I have read and understood those recommendations. It works for everyone else.
This frankly smacks of what I like to call "nannyism"; the overweaning desire to do something to me, against my better judgement, "for my own good", as if I were a complete moron incapable of assessing my own risk. No matter how you slice it, some activities we pursue for recreation just aren't safe and no amount of equipment will make them safe.
Something close to 30,000 people are killed annually on US roads alone. When it happens, we close the course and clean up the mess and I speak from the experience of having been one of those people who had to close the course and clean up the mess while working as a volunteer field medic for my municipal police department. There aren't even near that number killed in closed course car racing. Not even close. So you tell me, what drives this nonsense?
There's nothing wrong with laying out recommended safety equipment and requiring a signature stating I have read and understood those recommendations. It works for everyone else.
12-06-2018, 05:31 PM
#56
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The equal restraints rule should be amended to allow the passenger to upgrade restraints beyond that of the driver.
I’ve analyzed UV damage to plastics and think this concern is a ridiculous idea. Yes it’s possible if you park and store your race car outside in the back yard in the Florida sun, and then maybe even 3 years would be enough to destroy the harness (which is still certified). But in that case a simple visual inspection would be enough to see the harnesses are unsafe. The exposed surface will show the degradation, and typically the interior of the webbing and the back surface wouldn’t as they’d be covered and shielded by the exposed side.
With most PCA race cars stored in a garage or trailer instead of outside in the Florida sun this is just a silly concern. It seems the current safety culture creates rules based somewhat on conjecture.
If they want to argue argue about fatigue, fine, but that doesnt mean they’re garbage at year 5 either. Maybe let the drivers either keep current or run harnesses for years 5-10 after showing a logbook. Run less races or race hours than the most active national sedan series and you’re good to go. It’s not like these cars have big aero driving huge deceleration loads. The harnesses are fine for longer than 5 years.
But let’s be honest, this is true for FIA seats too (who came up with back braces?) and I’m sure that’s not going to change... Composite seats don’t fatigue like that. It just doesn’t work that way. I could see issues but not the ones I hear presupposed. I analyze this stuff for a living so I’m not just some guy whining, I’m a guy that would do the technical work justifying the certification for this stuff.
The windows open thing.... another can of worms.
Anyway, in practice it doesn’t matter. There’s no point arguing when the guy I’d be talking to doesn’t have an equal footing and isn’t the rules guy anyway. We’d just disagree and he’d have a policy to point to and I’d have principles and reason. Policy wins every time. I’ll just keep my stuff up and move on.
In general, consulting an expert before adding new safety requirements would be a great start. Relative to the expense of new gear it wouldn’t be expensive. Then we could at least appeal to authority when people disagreed with the rules and it would be a valid argument. And I think we all know it would be easy to find an expert that could fully support using HANS. On the other hand, the UV-harnesses thing would get a lot of head scratches.
I think you are asking why the 5 and 6 point harness needs to be replaced every 5 years....the answer is they are not coated to withstand UV ray degradation the way seat belts are. So if the car is left out in the sun and it beats down on the webbing it (according to science) will degrade and can fail.
I don't know why they aren't protected against UV damage as I am sure the coating would be cheaper than replacing every 5 years.
I don't know why they aren't protected against UV damage as I am sure the coating would be cheaper than replacing every 5 years.
With most PCA race cars stored in a garage or trailer instead of outside in the Florida sun this is just a silly concern. It seems the current safety culture creates rules based somewhat on conjecture.
If they want to argue argue about fatigue, fine, but that doesnt mean they’re garbage at year 5 either. Maybe let the drivers either keep current or run harnesses for years 5-10 after showing a logbook. Run less races or race hours than the most active national sedan series and you’re good to go. It’s not like these cars have big aero driving huge deceleration loads. The harnesses are fine for longer than 5 years.
But let’s be honest, this is true for FIA seats too (who came up with back braces?) and I’m sure that’s not going to change... Composite seats don’t fatigue like that. It just doesn’t work that way. I could see issues but not the ones I hear presupposed. I analyze this stuff for a living so I’m not just some guy whining, I’m a guy that would do the technical work justifying the certification for this stuff.
The windows open thing.... another can of worms.
Anyway, in practice it doesn’t matter. There’s no point arguing when the guy I’d be talking to doesn’t have an equal footing and isn’t the rules guy anyway. We’d just disagree and he’d have a policy to point to and I’d have principles and reason. Policy wins every time. I’ll just keep my stuff up and move on.
In general, consulting an expert before adding new safety requirements would be a great start. Relative to the expense of new gear it wouldn’t be expensive. Then we could at least appeal to authority when people disagreed with the rules and it would be a valid argument. And I think we all know it would be easy to find an expert that could fully support using HANS. On the other hand, the UV-harnesses thing would get a lot of head scratches.
12-06-2018, 05:32 PM
#57
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I can't stand PCA. Their events are horrible. In the name of "safety" it's not fun anymore. So what did I do? I stopped going to their events. Even got a friend to stop going!
Only NASA events ever since and never looked back! If they can put on a safe and enjoyable event, PCA should be able to. If not, oh well. Doesn't affect me anymore.
All this safety nonsense is actually silly when you think about it. You're more likely to get into a car accident on the way to and from the track than you are actually ON the track, I wish more people would understand this!
Many people got into car accidents just this morning on their way to work, some who died, yet there's no talk about commuters wearing helmets. Smh
LOL!!! Harnesses have expiration dates yet seatbelts don't! Too funny!!
Only NASA events ever since and never looked back! If they can put on a safe and enjoyable event, PCA should be able to. If not, oh well. Doesn't affect me anymore.
All this safety nonsense is actually silly when you think about it. You're more likely to get into a car accident on the way to and from the track than you are actually ON the track, I wish more people would understand this!
Many people got into car accidents just this morning on their way to work, some who died, yet there's no talk about commuters wearing helmets. Smh
LOL!!! Harnesses have expiration dates yet seatbelts don't! Too funny!!
12-06-2018, 05:36 PM
#58
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12-06-2018, 05:41 PM
#59
Scott, that's not an appeal to logic, it's just typical herd thinking. If all your friends...
It either makes sense or it doesn't. Near as I can tell it makes no sense and actually works to discourage the use of more advanced safety systems. It's already been pointed out there haven't been any safety studies demonstrating helmets work with airbags and three point belts.
It either makes sense or it doesn't. Near as I can tell it makes no sense and actually works to discourage the use of more advanced safety systems. It's already been pointed out there haven't been any safety studies demonstrating helmets work with airbags and three point belts.
I guess I am trying to understand your logic. You're saying nothing should be done with regards to mandatory safety requirements and it's implementation and only guidelines should be provided leaving it up to the participants as to whether or not they follow them? My concern would be that some participants would take too many shortcuts in regards to safety and car preparation.
With regards to safety importance one of the reasons I drive with PCA nearly 100% of the time and have for the past 16 seasons is because the participants typically are quite thoughtful and have a decent amount of respect for their own safety, the safety of others as well as for all cars and equipment. If PCA is too strict for some and they like to play elsewhere I completely understand. I happen to really like the PCA way.
12-06-2018, 05:46 PM
#60
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Experiments are expensive, but doing things because they "jest make sense" is a lot more expensive. The history of technical progress is littered with the bodies of folks who were convinced they knew what the heck was going on.