NEW PCA Best Practices for DE (Rant!)
#16
Rennlist Member
Wow
That's a lot of crashes for DE's
That's a lot of crashes for DE's
#17
#18
OK, so the Schroth 4-pts tear a little in the shoulder harness sections whereas the regular 5/6-pts don't. They also prevent my beer gut from sliding underneath; same as the 5/6-pts. I cannot see where the webbing overall is different and therefore requires the 5 year replacement rule because of that design. Lets not even talk about regular 3-pt design, webbing.
Can someone educate me on this. There are already enough regions that struggle with DEs (financials, filling them, etc.) which PCA promotes.
Can someone educate me on this. There are already enough regions that struggle with DEs (financials, filling them, etc.) which PCA promotes.
#19
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Having said that I do agree with the rule and the intent of the equal restraint rule. I understand that they don't want us hot shoes screaming around the track if our student is in a less safe condition than our awesomeness demands. Drive to the safety level of each participant or the easier fix, make sure everyone in the car is prepped equally if the worst happens.
My personal rule will be "no Hans no ride" since I only have 6 points.
This is going to be painful for the first 3 or 4 events this year. But Hans connectors are pretty cheap, installable on most new helmets and can be done at the track. No doubt there is someone who will lend our students a Hans whenever needed.
Mine will be available when not in use to any student at any event I go to.
#20
Rennlist Member
The dual use car (which most on this forum drive) poses a challenge by its very nature. Everyone wants to benefit from the added safety of a ‘race car’, which can unfortunately add risk when in isolation. Restraints just being one example.
Bob’s RS (and any Porsche from 1990 onward) has airbags and 3-point belts that were engineered to work together. That as much, we all can agree on. Over the ensuing quarter century, adding 4 (ouch, I submarined), 5 (ouch, my ***** are paté) or 6-point harnesses were evolutions in race restraint technology – though none specifically designed to work with the airbags as a countermeasure for one’s melon coming untethered. Completely out of spec, that as much, we probably still agree on.
My personal concern is that a frontal airbag may be irrelevant in a frontal crash with harnesses, and on that front, I am happy to wear my HANS. That works for me, driving alone.
Where I do have a problem, as no good deed goes unpunished, I now have to leave my safety equipment in the trailer when having a student passenger who does not have a HANS – even if they benefit from the factory engineered protection of 3-point belts and airbags. As I see it, it’s an unintended consequence of the equal restraint rule when there are otherwise 6-point harnesses available for both passengers.
I am happy to make equal restraints available, but not happy with a purposeful degradation of safety for the driver (instructor) in this this scenario. The correct outcome here is that both passengers have access to the enhanced safety of a 6-point provided they have a HANS. If one does not, then they should ride (or drive, as the case may be) with the factory 3-point and the airbag without degrading the safety of the other passenger.
Just my $0.02
If it is well reasoned and helpful, I’d be glad to share with PCA. Maybe I am missing something?
Best,
Matt
Bob’s RS (and any Porsche from 1990 onward) has airbags and 3-point belts that were engineered to work together. That as much, we all can agree on. Over the ensuing quarter century, adding 4 (ouch, I submarined), 5 (ouch, my ***** are paté) or 6-point harnesses were evolutions in race restraint technology – though none specifically designed to work with the airbags as a countermeasure for one’s melon coming untethered. Completely out of spec, that as much, we probably still agree on.
My personal concern is that a frontal airbag may be irrelevant in a frontal crash with harnesses, and on that front, I am happy to wear my HANS. That works for me, driving alone.
Where I do have a problem, as no good deed goes unpunished, I now have to leave my safety equipment in the trailer when having a student passenger who does not have a HANS – even if they benefit from the factory engineered protection of 3-point belts and airbags. As I see it, it’s an unintended consequence of the equal restraint rule when there are otherwise 6-point harnesses available for both passengers.
I am happy to make equal restraints available, but not happy with a purposeful degradation of safety for the driver (instructor) in this this scenario. The correct outcome here is that both passengers have access to the enhanced safety of a 6-point provided they have a HANS. If one does not, then they should ride (or drive, as the case may be) with the factory 3-point and the airbag without degrading the safety of the other passenger.
Just my $0.02
If it is well reasoned and helpful, I’d be glad to share with PCA. Maybe I am missing something?
Best,
Matt
#21
Rennlist Member
If it's a safety issue, why are we not talking about the fact that drivers have race seats (no mention of Halo seats) snd 6 point harnesses but no requited roll bars? I don't feel safe as an instructor with a student who is all strapped in but doesn't have the proper roll over protection...I thought PCA was all about safety systems? I normally wear a HANS when I driving my car solo and have the factory carbon buckets and 6 point belts (along with a roll bar) but in a students car, especially in a novice group, I almost never do. It's going to be a pain for the start but I guess we will all get used to it.
#23
If it's a safety issue, why are we not talking about the fact that drivers have race seats (no mention of Halo seats) snd 6 point harnesses but no requited roll bars? I don't feel safe as an instructor with a student who is all strapped in but doesn't have the proper roll over protection....
#24
Rennlist Member
OK, so the Schroth 4-pts tear a little in the shoulder harness sections whereas the regular 5/6-pts don't. They also prevent my beer gut from sliding underneath; same as the 5/6-pts. I cannot see where the webbing overall is different and therefore requires the 5 year replacement rule because of that design. Lets not even talk about regular 3-pt design, webbing.
Can someone educate me on this. There are already enough regions that struggle with DEs (financials, filling them, etc.) which PCA promotes.
Can someone educate me on this. There are already enough regions that struggle with DEs (financials, filling them, etc.) which PCA promotes.
I don't know why they aren't protected against UV damage as I am sure the coating would be cheaper than replacing every 5 years.
#25
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I agree with the PCA rule requiring use of a HANS if using harnesses. We can't be relying on the airbags if we're tightly strapped in with harnesses, and let's keep in mind that the helmet adds about 30% to the mass of the head, which increases neck load and the risk of basal skull fracture in a crash, if the head isn't prevented from whipping forward like a cannon ball relative to the torso.
And let's be clear: the rule does NOT say that you must use a HANS if the seat has a harness. The rule says that you must use the HANS if you actually USE the harness, rather than the 3-pt (if the car has a 3-pt).
And is anyone willing to argue that it's safer NOT to use a HANS if using a harness (regardless of whether you have roll protection)? That doesn't seem plausible to me, I only see potential benefit vs no real downside risk.
Regarding the rule that equal restraints must be used, I generally don't like the idea of asking a person in one seat to use less protection than they have available because the other person doesn't have it. That said, I also don't think it's acceptable for a student to be using harnesses, while not having harnesses available in the passenger seat for the instructor. But it's also not acceptable, if both seats to have both 3-pt and harnesses available, to ask the student to drop down to 3-pts because the instructor doesn't own a HANS and prefers to use the 3-pts in the passenger seat. The responsibilities of both the student and instructor, to each other, need to be considered - neither should be allowed to diminish the safety of the other.
Now, would I allow a passenger to ride with me if I'm using my harnesses and the passenger voluntary elects to use the 3-pts? Yes I would, but I'd dial back my driving to reduce the overall risk to the passenger (recognizing that I could still lose control due to factors such as hitting fluids).
And let's be clear: the rule does NOT say that you must use a HANS if the seat has a harness. The rule says that you must use the HANS if you actually USE the harness, rather than the 3-pt (if the car has a 3-pt).
And is anyone willing to argue that it's safer NOT to use a HANS if using a harness (regardless of whether you have roll protection)? That doesn't seem plausible to me, I only see potential benefit vs no real downside risk.
Regarding the rule that equal restraints must be used, I generally don't like the idea of asking a person in one seat to use less protection than they have available because the other person doesn't have it. That said, I also don't think it's acceptable for a student to be using harnesses, while not having harnesses available in the passenger seat for the instructor. But it's also not acceptable, if both seats to have both 3-pt and harnesses available, to ask the student to drop down to 3-pts because the instructor doesn't own a HANS and prefers to use the 3-pts in the passenger seat. The responsibilities of both the student and instructor, to each other, need to be considered - neither should be allowed to diminish the safety of the other.
Now, would I allow a passenger to ride with me if I'm using my harnesses and the passenger voluntary elects to use the 3-pts? Yes I would, but I'd dial back my driving to reduce the overall risk to the passenger (recognizing that I could still lose control due to factors such as hitting fluids).
#26
Re equal restraints....I've been trying to get clarity on PCA UCR rules. The site is not as clear as PCA. Can I run a 6 pt for driver and Schroth LWB 4 pt ASM harness for passenger?
Only reason I want to do it different for passenger is to avoid cutting my LWB to fit ASM belt on a 6 pt.
Only reason I want to do it different for passenger is to avoid cutting my LWB to fit ASM belt on a 6 pt.
#27
Rennlist Member
What is the purpose of safety rules that only effect the safety of the occupants and have no effect on the safety of other drivers? What's with that in the first place? I honestly don't understand the reasoning. Why does anyone other than me care what sort of safety equipment I use in a DE car?
I'm planning safety systems for my car right now and I intend to install a 1/2 cage, racing seats (HALO) harnesses, fire suppression and electrical cutoff but I'm sticking with the standard fuel tank for now. I mean to say that I do plan on building a safe car, but I really don't understand why anyone else cares what sort of harness I use, if I have a HANS setup, and all the rest.
Is there some insurance issue somehow? Certainly not one I know about. What drives it?
I'm planning safety systems for my car right now and I intend to install a 1/2 cage, racing seats (HALO) harnesses, fire suppression and electrical cutoff but I'm sticking with the standard fuel tank for now. I mean to say that I do plan on building a safe car, but I really don't understand why anyone else cares what sort of harness I use, if I have a HANS setup, and all the rest.
Is there some insurance issue somehow? Certainly not one I know about. What drives it?
Last edited by Otto Mechanic; 12-06-2018 at 03:39 AM.
#28
Instructor
Fact is there is no testing on the use of a helmet in a car with airbags. None, nada. When I went to the Advanced M Course at the BMW school out at Thermal in February I was really surprised to learn that they had discontinued the use of helmets entirely. The rational was that after speaking with their engineers and of course attorneys they decided that the airbags both drivers and side curtain are not really compatible with helmets. Not sure how much analysis was done but I suspect a fair amount because to remove helmets from the equation is a substantial step especially in a program with speeds just over 140 mph.
Having said that I don't expect any of the groups I do HPDE with to adopt a practice similar to the BMW School for a variety of reasons starting with the wide variety of cars that participate, insurance and of course the school does nearly all of its instruction in lead follow which provides some level of control that you would not see in a typical HPDE day.
Having said that I don't expect any of the groups I do HPDE with to adopt a practice similar to the BMW School for a variety of reasons starting with the wide variety of cars that participate, insurance and of course the school does nearly all of its instruction in lead follow which provides some level of control that you would not see in a typical HPDE day.
#29
I think you are asking why the 5 and 6 point harness needs to be replaced every 5 years....the answer is they are not coated to withstand UV ray degradation the way seat belts are. So if the car is left out in the sun and it beats down on the webbing it (according to science) will degrade and can fail.
I don't know why they aren't protected against UV damage as I am sure the coating would be cheaper than replacing every 5 years.
I don't know why they aren't protected against UV damage as I am sure the coating would be cheaper than replacing every 5 years.
#30
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What is the purpose of safety rules that only effect the safety of the occupants and have no effect on the safety of other drivers? What's with that in the first place? I honestly don't understand the reasoning. Why does anyone other than me care what sort of safety equipment I use in a DE car?