LuigiVampa

Exactly. Instructors who "fail"students, or mandate changes to something which is a "style" rather than right and wrong, are doing the student a disservice. Sure, we should dissuade students from shuffle steering around the track, but to fail someone because they shuffle steer once at a tight turn is ridiculous.

Too often, I have spoken with a student who has said a previous instructor said "do it this way" and really that position amounted to an opinion. That is wrongheaded thinking in my book!

+1

ProCoach

^^This^^

911 Rod

If a student appears to be advancing well and has a good head on their shoulders, and they ask me about different instructors. I tell them to take what they want from us and use what they feel comes naturally for them.

Thundermoose

This.

I am by no means an expert driver but in my 7 years of driving I have been able to drive every track, including COTA using 9 and 3. The only exception was driving our Lemons car which had no power steering. I had to use 2 and 3 to get it around turn 10 at TWS.

So much of driving comes down to being precise and repeatable. Why muddy it up with shuffle steering? I am sure we can always come up with a scenario where you may need to shuffle, but I contend that 99% of tracks and corners can be driven at 9 and 3.

I remember getting my check ride for NASA TT and the CDI (who is also a professional tennis coach) saying that the first thing he looked at was my hand position since that gives him a first glance at my understanding of the fundamentals. I had to shuffle to get on the track from the paddock. After that I committed to always use 9 and 3, even when driving in the paddock or on the street for that matter.

Seems like it's easier to teach as well. It's known to work and easier to observe. How do you teach the right amount of shuffle?

However as others have said, if you want to shuffle go for it. As for me and my car, we'll do 9 and 3, thank you.

Juha G

Depends on the car...no point in shuffle steering in either of the CUP cars (the wheel just doesn't turn enough).


And here's what happens when I shuffle steer (disclaimer: car had open diff and really bad tires):

mark kibort

And that was the reason for all my comments, as shown by your 2nd example. (and there are MANY others) when you shuffle steer, you might get away with it, but it makes it very difficult to be precise in your corrections. in the end , it will be faster because you can dance on the edge easier.

Juha G

You and me seem to be the only ones having an issue with this... Although I've yet to see any incar from a DE with shuffle steering while sliding the car. I mean it's doable but unless you really really must move your hands on the wheel, you really shouldn't.

Here's an old video with the 993...I had to shuffle steer because I ran out of hands.

mark kibort

Yes, there is lots of video of sliding and crashing cars with roots in "shufflesteering" but this example of when its required. its an example of a near drift situation. if you notice, the driver starts out with proper hands and only shufflesteers when he runs out of steering angle allowed by fixed hands........but most importantly, he makes only one adjustment, and is able to "remember" where 0 is on the wheel to not over correct. the shufflesteer that i cringe and and always try and break, is the kind where there is constant cheating up of the grip of both hands, where when in on the edge or slide, there is no intuitive center or straight of the wheel, which causes , in most cases, over or under correction as well as slow response control.
here is a great example.....

LuigiVampa

Actually, I think you put it correctly. No one, including me, is saying that shuffle steering is the preferred way to control a race car. That being said, I don't like dealing in absolutes so I also think saying NEVER is the wrong approach as well.

Juha G

I agree on the absolutes part! To prove the point; it is ok to shuffle steer if your name is Walter Röhrl
But in DE, I would just try to keep both hands on the wheel. And if you're racing...well you probably already have an idea on what to do with your hands.

mark kibort

drifting, rain racing..... those are the exeptions ..... if you are racing, there is no gurantee you have not optimized hand position. ive helped plenty of folks break that habit. at first , there are all the usual excuses...... " steering ratio, my seat position, my tires are old, more comfortable, etc" in the end, its just a bad habit that takes a little work to break. when broken, all are much happier and faster /safer.
a little anecdotal story:
One of our fastest club GT1 car drivers was kind of set in his ways. when i saw his in-car, i mentioned it and gave he reasons , especially since the car had 1000hp and being able to drive the edge easier (operative word, "easier") he might be a little faster. we discussed it.. he researched a few of the known top drivers with fast cars and their incar videos, and gave it a shot. He was NOT stubborn and was a student of the sport, always willing to learn. spent a lot of time in the go karts too in the off season. he was a pretty fast driver BUT , in the end it made him better and i think he agrees now that it was an improvement in his style and technique. there are still quite a few racers that do this and are pretty fast doing it.... i just contend it is a way for them to get even faster.