will968

I do my best listening through my hands - not the butt. Moving them around the wheel constantly would take away from that, plus it looks ridiculous

mkd944

My soon to be 16 YO daughter is learning to drive. Here is what they are teaching in her driver's handbook. The hand positioning appears to be 11 and 1 except when you shuffle your hands to 5 and 7 which made me laugh. I have told my daughter not to do this.


My $.02 - I shuffle steered as an auto-crosser because it was absolutely necessary. I NEVER shuffle steer on track...unless I need to. My point is that I don't think you make a blanket statement that it is wrong or right. It depends on the circumstances (car and track) and it is just like having another tool in your bag. But, as I said, I typically do not shuffle steer on track.

sbelles

I re-grip a bit on some very slow speed corners. It saves arthritic shoulders some wear and tear.

mark kibort

you clearly missed the point. i never said you could lose control because of shufflesteering, as you mention as part of your argument. shufflesteering can inhibit a drivers ability to bring a car into control that has become out of control. ive done this test with many of the students ive worked with. 90% of the time, shufflesteering creates over or under corrections. (i say 90% because it happens most all the time) Also, by shufflesteering you are not able to stay at the edge as efficiently as if you were holding the wheel properly. (9-3/10-2) cheating up for leverage is not shuffle steering , as long as one hand has primary responsibility for finding center. (like hairpins, where one hand will move upward as seen in some of vintage race videos).

im a firm believer in NOT shufflesteering, becuause i have seen how many have lost control of their vehicles by not being able to control the car effectively in emergency conditions. (putting too much steering input, or not enough in these reactionary periods of control)

As far as athletes that dont use commonly coached techniques... i was one of those such athletes, and while it worked for me at the level i competed, I'm sure if would have changed , I would have performed much better in the long run. the difference, the downside of not shuffle steering is far less than rebuilding a swing for a athlete that might take years to become as good and then excel. in driving, this change has little or no downside. again, this is my personal opinions based on my experience. others may have other perspectives here.

some may disagree, but at that point, why not briefly let go of that one hand? i cant think of any turns where i would be that crossed up, and my steering ratio is as bad as any ive seen at the track, sans true vintage american cars. go watch leh Keen at sebring in a variety of cars at the hairpin and see if he crosses up or shuffles...........it never happens.

yes, there some that feel as you do, that dont want to offer their opinion on the technique. I only bring it up because i think its helpful and there is little downside for not shuffle steering and a pretty large upside.

i dont think re-grip qualifies very often as "shufftlesteering". i move one hand on my wheel due to the effort needed to control my car and serious sholder injuries i have yet to have repaired.. However, center is never lost.

and this, quite simply summarizes the issue perfectly. there are many styles or techniques European athletes have shown, over history, that we have copied or emulated to "keep up".

fatbillybob

Is that because you were not shuffle steering or did not control the wheel well enough to his liking at 10-2?


I agree 100% with Luigi. Basically if you can control your car with confidence that's what counts. I mostly do not shuffle. I nearly 100% shuffle on haripins. There is a sweet spot for me to control my wheel and it is not when my hands are crossed over. Also, caster is your friend. Use it judiciously.

LuigiVampa

You need to reread what I wrote as I never said it would cause someone to lose control. I said I have never lost orientation of the wheel because I shuffled. Two different things.

I'm a results orientated person. If I can control my car effectively and win races is my technique wrong? Does it matter how I got there?

Does Hamilton drive like Vettel? Does Verstappen drive like Ricciardo?

Is a win less of a win because a driver's technique was different? Of course not.

mark kibort

Now we are getting a little off track. once again, when shuffle-steering , it can compromise your ability to find wheel center , which is critical to car control when over the limits of the car's grip. there are obviously different degrees of this. its not an absolute. just like certain athletic techniques can get the job done that might not be most efficient. the technique being wrong or right has mostly to do with what is more safe and a little to do with what is faster. ive talked to many very experienced drivers and convinced them to change.. in the end, many have appreciated the input and have become better drivers. its not a matter of driving style, which is a different conversation, its a matter of technique. the best athletes try techniques that might improve their games. this is no different. you dont see anyone advocating and promoting change to shufflesteering , do you ?

DTMiller

Lol. Yes, lots of people advocate prepositioning the hands in certain turns.

I'm generally opposed to it but not nearly as firmly as I am opposed to the notion that there are any absolutes.

MaynardZed

Veloce Raptor

Peter and I and Zed 100% on this topic.

Back in the day, before racing, when I was a sworn federal agent, we were taught to shuffle steer in tight spaces...in part because we often had lots o crap attached to our belts under our suit coats (guns, radio, flex cuffs, etc), and partly because we mostly did lower speed motorcade driving in urban and semi urban environments. In addition, our vehicles had huge steering wheels (old school Suburbans, Cadillacs, Lincolns, etc) with very slow racks.

Things are different now, mostly. But every once in a while I still encounter a car/track situation (such as an older car on the super tight slow corners at COTA ) where brief shuffling is the only was to smoothly roll through the corner

wanna911

Andrew Davis does it. He did it in my car when coaching me for a weekend. I forget his reasoning, but also never had the urge to do it myself, even after that.

I think muscle memory, car orientation, lateral load and repetition will eventually eliminate any discombobulation in regards to wheel positioning. Our brains process far more information than we give them credit for and can use a plethora of senses to determine how to get back to center. I believe Andrew would release the wheel slightly after correcting for a back end slide. Whatever the case, he had it down to a science. For a guy who's basically had to earn his way into pro racing, I won't argue with him. That being said, I feel better at 9 and 3.

winders

Okay, I think most of us will agree that we should teach people to keep their hands at 9 and 3. Then once they have that as a habit, they can explore when it might be advantageous for them to move their hands on the steering wheel. In other words, we should get people to stop their "shuffle steering just to shuffle steer for no good reason" bad habit and to steer with fixed hand positions. The video in the original post is an example of "shuffle steering just to shuffle steer for no good reason" and should be pointed out as such.

I drive an old air-cooled 911 with a slow rack with 12" wide front tires at Sears Point which is one of the tightest and most technical tracks in the country. I don't have to move my hands from 9 and 3 as long as I don't make a big mistake. SO I think most people can be taught the 9 and 3 fixed hand position method without causing the world to come to an end....

gbuff

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TXE36

Meh, as long as it isn't happy hands and the inputs are smooth I don't think it matters all that much.

-Mike

LuigiVampa

I've only been a PCA instructor for a few years but what I notice is a tendency for some instructors to only want to teach their technique and everything else is wrong. If a student is doing something dangerous it needs to be corrected. If a student is way off on technique they need to be corrected. I think constant shuffle steering needs to be corrected - not outlawed.

You also need to work with students how you find them - add a little and subtract a little. Don't rewrite everything the last instructor taught them. It's confusing enough out there!

I also don't agree that it compromises the ability to find wheel center. Where is the data or videos to show that? Also, you are assuming every driver processes their inputs in the same fashion. It could be that it is disorientating to some but saying it would be to all is over-broad.

In short, I believe that on a limited number of corners out there a shuffle steer is not problematic at all.

+1