Need guidance. Want to start racing
11-01-2018, 10:55 AM
#16
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I've been racing for 5 years now with PCA and love it. First in I class, SPC and GTB1 with a Gen1 Cayman and just bought a Gen2 Cayman to race in 2019 in GTB1. Here is what I have learned -
Time and budget are the two biggest factors with racing. It makes DE look like it is free.
Are you going to work on your own car or hire support? Hiring support will add a couple thousand to your weekend but if you have a problem with your car many times it can be fixed and your weekend is saved. You can also enjoy your weekend more as you are not doing all the maintenance. For me it is worth the extra cost.
Tire, tires, tires - even in the cheaper spec classes you can spend a couple thousand in tires in one weekend. There are some who go cheap, and drive with many heat cycles, but you put yourself at a disadvantage to someone with newer tires. I strike a middle ground and try to buy one set of tires per race weekend. In the past I might have bought three and that got expensive.
Your car is going to see much more abuse than DE so your cost of maintenance will go up.
There is also greater risk in a race than DE because you are racing and there is much closer proximity of cars. Many more chances for things to happen. Can you write off your car or will you pay for insurance?
Whatever the group you are looking to race with I recommend attending a weekend as a spectator. Walk the paddock. I've spoken with tons of people about my racing experience and even written a bunch of articles for our region's newsletter about my experiences. You might find what class or group fits you best.
Lastly, a big part of why I race with PCA is because I have made a lot of friends and the longer you race the more you know the people around you. I also like the focus on safety.
That being said, many have had great experiences with AER because it is so cheap and there is tons of seat time. Since the car is shared you may have to prove yourself to a team to let you join as a complete noob. You could also rent a miata or some other car to go racing as well and gain some experience.
Bottom line - do your research as I made some mistakes along with the way and spent money I didn't need to. Talk to people - everyone in the paddock loves to talk about their car, class and racing in general.
Good luck!
Time and budget are the two biggest factors with racing. It makes DE look like it is free.
Are you going to work on your own car or hire support? Hiring support will add a couple thousand to your weekend but if you have a problem with your car many times it can be fixed and your weekend is saved. You can also enjoy your weekend more as you are not doing all the maintenance. For me it is worth the extra cost.
Tire, tires, tires - even in the cheaper spec classes you can spend a couple thousand in tires in one weekend. There are some who go cheap, and drive with many heat cycles, but you put yourself at a disadvantage to someone with newer tires. I strike a middle ground and try to buy one set of tires per race weekend. In the past I might have bought three and that got expensive.
Your car is going to see much more abuse than DE so your cost of maintenance will go up.
There is also greater risk in a race than DE because you are racing and there is much closer proximity of cars. Many more chances for things to happen. Can you write off your car or will you pay for insurance?
Whatever the group you are looking to race with I recommend attending a weekend as a spectator. Walk the paddock. I've spoken with tons of people about my racing experience and even written a bunch of articles for our region's newsletter about my experiences. You might find what class or group fits you best.
Lastly, a big part of why I race with PCA is because I have made a lot of friends and the longer you race the more you know the people around you. I also like the focus on safety.
That being said, many have had great experiences with AER because it is so cheap and there is tons of seat time. Since the car is shared you may have to prove yourself to a team to let you join as a complete noob. You could also rent a miata or some other car to go racing as well and gain some experience.
Bottom line - do your research as I made some mistakes along with the way and spent money I didn't need to. Talk to people - everyone in the paddock loves to talk about their car, class and racing in general.
Good luck!
11-01-2018, 12:41 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
I've also got a 987.2 Spyder, and yes I like driving it more than the Miata, but you hit the nail on the head. The miata is inexpensive, probably fully depreciated already, fun to drive and if you want to flip it you won't take much of a hit. Very low cost way/low risk way to see if you like it. I have not gone wheel-to-wheel yet, the next series starts next year. Trying to get some seat time so I don't embarrass myself...
11-01-2018, 01:50 PM
#18
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Thread Starter
If you think a Miata or 944 is slow, wait until you crash one at speed. Only then will you realize how fast you were traveling. Things happen much faster in high HP cars. Work your way up. Learn to drive and become a student of the sport. And please get some open track experience before you go wheel to wheel. Go with an organization that doesn't require a point by so you get used to passing and being passed - off line, in a braking zone, etc. Or, you know, do it your way.
I've been racing for 5 years now with PCA and love it. First in I class, SPC and GTB1 with a Gen1 Cayman and just bought a Gen2 Cayman to race in 2019 in GTB1. Here is what I have learned -
Time and budget are the two biggest factors with racing. It makes DE look like it is free.
Are you going to work on your own car or hire support? Hiring support will add a couple thousand to your weekend but if you have a problem with your car many times it can be fixed and your weekend is saved. You can also enjoy your weekend more as you are not doing all the maintenance. For me it is worth the extra cost.
Tire, tires, tires - even in the cheaper spec classes you can spend a couple thousand in tires in one weekend. There are some who go cheap, and drive with many heat cycles, but you put yourself at a disadvantage to someone with newer tires. I strike a middle ground and try to buy one set of tires per race weekend. In the past I might have bought three and that got expensive.
Your car is going to see much more abuse than DE so your cost of maintenance will go up.
There is also greater risk in a race than DE because you are racing and there is much closer proximity of cars. Many more chances for things to happen. Can you write off your car or will you pay for insurance?
Whatever the group you are looking to race with I recommend attending a weekend as a spectator. Walk the paddock. I've spoken with tons of people about my racing experience and even written a bunch of articles for our region's newsletter about my experiences. You might find what class or group fits you best.
Lastly, a big part of why I race with PCA is because I have made a lot of friends and the longer you race the more you know the people around you. I also like the focus on safety.
That being said, many have had great experiences with AER because it is so cheap and there is tons of seat time. Since the car is shared you may have to prove yourself to a team to let you join as a complete noob. You could also rent a miata or some other car to go racing as well and gain some experience.
Bottom line - do your research as I made some mistakes along with the way and spent money I didn't need to. Talk to people - everyone in the paddock loves to talk about their car, class and racing in general.
Good luck!
Time and budget are the two biggest factors with racing. It makes DE look like it is free.
Are you going to work on your own car or hire support? Hiring support will add a couple thousand to your weekend but if you have a problem with your car many times it can be fixed and your weekend is saved. You can also enjoy your weekend more as you are not doing all the maintenance. For me it is worth the extra cost.
Tire, tires, tires - even in the cheaper spec classes you can spend a couple thousand in tires in one weekend. There are some who go cheap, and drive with many heat cycles, but you put yourself at a disadvantage to someone with newer tires. I strike a middle ground and try to buy one set of tires per race weekend. In the past I might have bought three and that got expensive.
Your car is going to see much more abuse than DE so your cost of maintenance will go up.
There is also greater risk in a race than DE because you are racing and there is much closer proximity of cars. Many more chances for things to happen. Can you write off your car or will you pay for insurance?
Whatever the group you are looking to race with I recommend attending a weekend as a spectator. Walk the paddock. I've spoken with tons of people about my racing experience and even written a bunch of articles for our region's newsletter about my experiences. You might find what class or group fits you best.
Lastly, a big part of why I race with PCA is because I have made a lot of friends and the longer you race the more you know the people around you. I also like the focus on safety.
That being said, many have had great experiences with AER because it is so cheap and there is tons of seat time. Since the car is shared you may have to prove yourself to a team to let you join as a complete noob. You could also rent a miata or some other car to go racing as well and gain some experience.
Bottom line - do your research as I made some mistakes along with the way and spent money I didn't need to. Talk to people - everyone in the paddock loves to talk about their car, class and racing in general.
Good luck!
11-01-2018, 04:13 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Cadaver
Some incredibly informative responses. I truly am appreciative. I have always been skeptical about posting on rennlist as it can turn into a sh$t show quick and go off topic in a hurry. This has really helped me put things into perspective. Especially the last several posts about putting the speed ego aside and enjoy a Miata, Boxster, or 944. The “wait till you wreck a 944 at speed” comment really resonated. As did Luigi info. I actually looked long and hard at that martini cayman you had for sale not too long ago. I have the funds to support some fun and that’s how I’m looking at this. Fun and desposable equipment. But, I have the sense to not totally lose my *** either and buy a GT3 cup car and hire a 10 man crew then learn in a weekend or two what you all have learned over decades. I think I’ll try to find a Boxster or Miata and just have fun. If it seems a good starting point to not only learn how to race but learn what one is getting into. Thanks again everyone for your posts. Maybe trade paint together soon.
11-01-2018, 05:40 PM
#20
Whose signature has the quote: "Which part of Porsche racing did you think would be cheap? Porsche or racing?"
My SPB has about 1/2 the HP of my GT3, but it's equally fun to drive and close in lap times. If I were you, I'd start with a SPB, SP996 or 997. IMO, they are plenty fast. I think you could check your lap times against the SP996 and see how close they are. I suspect they aren't too far apart. SP997 might be faster. And, the SP996 / SP997 have a driving dynamic a little closer to your car (rear engine). The SPB has a different cadence to it.
As long as you don't crash, you should be able to sell a good car for close to what you bought it for - so go get a race car and jump in head first! There are classes in SCCA and NASA for the spec PCA cars.
-td
My SPB has about 1/2 the HP of my GT3, but it's equally fun to drive and close in lap times. If I were you, I'd start with a SPB, SP996 or 997. IMO, they are plenty fast. I think you could check your lap times against the SP996 and see how close they are. I suspect they aren't too far apart. SP997 might be faster. And, the SP996 / SP997 have a driving dynamic a little closer to your car (rear engine). The SPB has a different cadence to it.
As long as you don't crash, you should be able to sell a good car for close to what you bought it for - so go get a race car and jump in head first! There are classes in SCCA and NASA for the spec PCA cars.
-td
11-01-2018, 06:56 PM
#21
The Penguin King
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First thing I would advise is to see what classes are most popular at the tracks you are most likely to race. Grid sizes vary considerably across the country for many classes. Racing is a lot more fun in my opinion when there is a sizable grid. When there is, you always have someone to race, regardless of your pace. SM, SP944, SPB are all great classes, but their popularity varies regionally. Same with the NASA GTS classes. I prefer spec classes where it’s about driver much more than car. And I find close racing much more exciting than high speed driving with few cars around.
11-01-2018, 07:17 PM
#22
First thing I would advise is to see what classes are most popular at the tracks you are most likely to race. Grid sizes vary considerably across the country for many classes. Racing is a lot more fun in my opinion when there is a sizable grid. When there is, you always have someone to race, regardless of your pace. SM, SP944, SPB are all great classes, but their popularity varies regionally. Same with the NASA GTS classes. I prefer spec classes where it’s about driver much more than car. And I find close racing much more exciting than high speed driving with few cars around.
11-01-2018, 08:27 PM
#23
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Cadaver, would recommend the best local resource for your original question, if you want to race, you’ll need professional support in some capacity, even it it’s just advice. Karl Wilen at KC Rennsports runs everything between WRL to top level PWC and Conti level competition. Talk to him, tell him I sent you. He’s a gem. And people really have a good time racing with him, which is not always the case with local resources.
11-01-2018, 08:46 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Cadaver, would recommend the best local resource for your original question, if you want to race, you’ll need professional support in some capacity, even it it’s just advice. Karl Wilen at KC Rennsports runs everything between WRL to top level PWC and Conti level competition. Talk to him, tell him I sent you. He’s a gem. And people really have a good time racing with him, which is not always the case with local resources.
11-01-2018, 08:51 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
This is an interesting analysis on operating costs for different classes, although I'm not sure who put it together. The data are all there so folks who run some of these classes can comment on accuracy. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1940004030
Low-horsepower one-design classes like SPB or SM are going to allow you to improve fastest. Large grids mean you're always racing someone, and if all the cars are putatively the same you immediately see where you're losing time. And big classes are just more fun!
ETA: Just looked at the spreadsheet in a bit more detail. I wish the Prototipo Super Leggero were a real car; those specs are amazing. When it looks too good to be true...
Low-horsepower one-design classes like SPB or SM are going to allow you to improve fastest. Large grids mean you're always racing someone, and if all the cars are putatively the same you immediately see where you're losing time. And big classes are just more fun!
ETA: Just looked at the spreadsheet in a bit more detail. I wish the Prototipo Super Leggero were a real car; those specs are amazing. When it looks too good to be true...
Last edited by mobius911; 11-01-2018 at 09:11 PM.
11-01-2018, 10:29 PM
#26
Drifting
Just looked at that spreadsheet.
Numbers are a little off for SP911.
Jerry Woods builds those cars. They are $200k+.
Ive seen them used for over 100k.
And they use 100 octane, not 93.
And engine rebuild no way 11k, will be 15k or more. Trans rebuild 2k, no way either.
The way cheaper version of that car is PCA stock E class, just a little less hp, but much bigger field of cars. The rebuilds being a bit less on the engine. But cost to purchase waaaaay lower than SP911. These used start at 40k. Pretty ones (but not faster) are more $. I just had a second one built, all in was about 60k with fresh engine and trans, including the car.
Numbers are a little off for SP911.
Jerry Woods builds those cars. They are $200k+.
Ive seen them used for over 100k.
And they use 100 octane, not 93.
And engine rebuild no way 11k, will be 15k or more. Trans rebuild 2k, no way either.
The way cheaper version of that car is PCA stock E class, just a little less hp, but much bigger field of cars. The rebuilds being a bit less on the engine. But cost to purchase waaaaay lower than SP911. These used start at 40k. Pretty ones (but not faster) are more $. I just had a second one built, all in was about 60k with fresh engine and trans, including the car.
11-01-2018, 10:42 PM
#28
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This is an interesting analysis on operating costs for different classes, although I'm not sure who put it together. The data are all there so folks who run some of these classes can comment on accuracy. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1940004030
Low-horsepower one-design classes like SPB or SM are going to allow you to improve fastest. Large grids mean you're always racing someone, and if all the cars are putatively the same you immediately see where you're losing time. And big classes are just more fun!
ETA: Just looked at the spreadsheet in a bit more detail. I wish the Prototipo Super Leggero were a real car; those specs are amazing. When it looks too good to be true...
Low-horsepower one-design classes like SPB or SM are going to allow you to improve fastest. Large grids mean you're always racing someone, and if all the cars are putatively the same you immediately see where you're losing time. And big classes are just more fun!
ETA: Just looked at the spreadsheet in a bit more detail. I wish the Prototipo Super Leggero were a real car; those specs are amazing. When it looks too good to be true...
11-01-2018, 11:31 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by mglobe
I prefer spec classes where it’s about driver much more than car. And I find close racing much more exciting than high speed driving with few cars around.
11-01-2018, 11:50 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
I see some incorrect information in this thread about the Spec 911 rules. JWE has built many Spec 911s. Outstanding cars.
But others have built them as well, and their builds are nowhere near $200k.
In recent years, the front runners in that class in Spec 911 were not JWE customers. Great drivers in great cars to be sure, but not $200k builds.
And here is the 2018 Spec 911 rule for fuel:
" All engines must run a standard pump gas of 92 octane or less. No race fuels, additives or mixing are allowed."
Spec 911 was created by the Porsche Racing Club, a group I helped form in 2001. I was the rules person for PRC for 10+ years.
I am a believer in getting perspective on many things via the 'net. But in my experience, it may be best to speak to real people, not spreadsheets.
But others have built them as well, and their builds are nowhere near $200k.
In recent years, the front runners in that class in Spec 911 were not JWE customers. Great drivers in great cars to be sure, but not $200k builds.
And here is the 2018 Spec 911 rule for fuel:
" All engines must run a standard pump gas of 92 octane or less. No race fuels, additives or mixing are allowed."
Spec 911 was created by the Porsche Racing Club, a group I helped form in 2001. I was the rules person for PRC for 10+ years.
I am a believer in getting perspective on many things via the 'net. But in my experience, it may be best to speak to real people, not spreadsheets.
Last edited by Mahler9th; 11-02-2018 at 12:26 AM.