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If we had very close-up pics of the failed suspension pieces (specifically, close-ups of the failure points), it may be possible to determine which one failed first. As mentioned above, usually one part will crack due to a previous accident, repeated abuse over time, etc. Cracks can propagate through 3/4 of the part until it can no longer handle the loads being applied, and then it fails catastrophically. The 3/4 where the crack propagated can have a "clean break" appearance to it, and the last 1/4 will look more mangled due to the bending or twisting as the part finally fails. You should be able to see this in a close-up picture.
It is a possible smoking gun that the car was in another recent accident, obviously.
Glad you're okay and thanks for posting--these kinds of threads are good for offering insight and making all of us reflect on what we're doing. At Lime Rock (and I'm sure many other tracks), modern street cars are easily setting lap times only achievable by the fastest race cars of not long ago. Safety upgrades are so important and often overlooked or poo-pooed. Sounds like the robust safety systems of that prepped M3 saved you. Up until just recently I really wanted to upgrade from my GT4 to a 991.2 GT3 or RS for track duty. Now I'm not so sure--I don't know if I want that much more speed without full protection (full cage, halo seat, fire suppression). I'm always amazed by the guys in new Z06 Corvettes who blast toward the bus stop at Watkins Glen at 165 mph with stock three-point belts, a helmet, jeans and a t-shirt.
Glad you're okay and thanks for posting--these kinds of threads are good for offering insight and making all of us reflect on what we're doing. At Lime Rock (and I'm sure many other tracks), modern street cars are easily setting lap times only achievable by the fastest race cars of not long ago. Safety upgrades are so important and often overlooked or poo-pooed. Sounds like the robust safety systems of that prepped M3 saved you. Up until just recently I really wanted to upgrade from my GT4 to a 991.2 GT3 or RS for track duty. Now I'm not so sure--I don't know if I want that much more speed without full protection (full cage, halo seat, fire suppression). I'm always amazed by the guys in new Z06 Corvettes who blast toward the bus stop at Watkins Glen at 165 mph with stock three-point belts, a helmet, jeans and a t-shirt.
Agreed - I only recently bought a HANS since I started racing, I shudder to think now what would have happened if I wasn't wearing it. Now I will absolutely wear it all the time even if track day rules don't require.
Oil spills happen and then all the fancy nannies and Porsche reliability won't save you no matter how advanced the car.
Agreed - I only recently bought a HANS since I started racing, I shudder to think now what would have happened if I wasn't wearing it. Now I will absolutely wear it all the time even if track day rules don't require.
Yep, please do. Personally I use full gear anytime I go on track - race, DE, whatever.
Every time I look at the pictures again I see new stuff. The deformation around the trailing arm pocket is interesting too. This is a strong part of the car, the rear jacking point is in this area - you can pick up half the car here w/o damaging it. The push up damage is severe there (big force), but I don' think the wall did it unless the car climbed the wall and the wall impact appears to be further up and back on the quarter panel. Where was the loose tire found? I think it departed the car before the wall impact.
Assuming the car was moving forward after the wall hit, as indicated by the third picture in the op, the push up damage would not have occurred after the wall impact and coming to rest. The grass path of the front tire indicates no spin between the end of the wall impact and coming to rest.
If the tire did come off before impact, then the bend damage to the rim likely occurred when the car was going backwards, the tire departed and the car ran over it. Do you recall any other impacts besides the wall? Was there something else out these besides the wall to hit?
I don't think any of the rear suspension damage was done by the wall. Knowing where the loose tire ended up could be helpful.
Every time I look at the pictures again I see new stuff. The deformation around the trailing arm pocket is interesting too. This is a strong part of the car, the rear jacking point is in this area - you can pick up half the car here w/o damaging it. The push up damage is severe there (big force), but I don' think the wall did it unless the car climbed the wall and the wall impact appears to be further up and back on the quarter panel. Where was the loose tire found? I think it departed the car before the wall impact.
Assuming the car was moving forward after the wall hit, as indicated by the third picture in the op, the push up damage would not have occurred after the wall impact and coming to rest. The grass path of the front tire indicates no spin between the end of the wall impact and coming to rest.
If the tire did come off before impact, then the bend damage to the rim likely occurred when the car was going backwards, the tire departed and the car ran over it. Do you recall any other impacts besides the wall? Was there something else out these besides the wall to hit?
I don't think any of the rear suspension damage was done by the wall. Knowing where the loose tire ended up could be helpful.
-Mike
Yeah you are quite good at this! Part of me wants to fly you out to do some inspection on the car!
Yes the word I got was the rear tire came off and got drug underneath the car at some point. You can see the tire final resting place in the photo below.
My point is that if you want to redirect a car with a shallow angle of impact, you generally want a rigid barrier which doesn't move. If you want the barrier to move and absorb energy, you want something more flexible like guardrail (Armco), tire walls, etc.
by definition of how you reduce deceleration forces, you need things to move, at an angle, head on, it doesnt matter. armco deforms (which is movements within its own structure)... tire wallls also slow the decell rate via deformation , but a moving cement wall can be the difference between life and death because of how much energy they can absorb over a short distance. this is a game of inches at high speed where the car is written off either way.
by definition of how you reduce deceleration forces, you need things to move, at an angle, head on, it doesnt matter. armco deforms (which is movements within its own structure)... tire wallls also slow the decell rate via deformation , but a moving cement wall can be the difference between life and death because of how much energy they can absorb over a short distance. this is a game of inches at high speed where the car is written off either way.
Yes, a barrier that moves (gives, absorbs) is always better than a rigid one that doesn't, no matter what.
Glad you're okay and thanks for posting--these kinds of threads are good for offering insight and making all of us reflect on what we're doing. At Lime Rock (and I'm sure many other tracks), modern street cars are easily setting lap times only achievable by the fastest race cars of not long ago. Safety upgrades are so important and often overlooked or poo-pooed. Sounds like the robust safety systems of that prepped M3 saved you. Up until just recently I really wanted to upgrade from my GT4 to a 991.2 GT3 or RS for track duty. Now I'm not so sure--I don't know if I want that much more speed without full protection (full cage, halo seat, fire suppression). I'm always amazed by the guys in new Z06 Corvettes who blast toward the bus stop at Watkins Glen at 165 mph with stock three-point belts, a helmet, jeans and a t-shirt.
I have built 2 E36 track cars over the last two years and know the common failure points pretty well on both this and the E46. TXE36, I'm not sure that the presence of the RTAB still being attach to the car indicates that it did not fail. The failure is usually a crack that introduces wiggle of the arm that dramatically changes the geometry of the car. I'm not sure what to think at this point, except I do know that even with what is known now about these cars, people are very cavalier about not addressing common failure points or deferring them until a later time (e.g., E46 rear subframe reinforcements - have seen MANY E46s in shops getting repairs recently, VANOS repairs on S54 - ticking time bombs unless done, etc). just like coolant lines on certain 911s!
Glad the OP is in good shape and the cage/HANS did it's job.
I'm not sure what to think at this point, except I do know that even with what is known now about these cars, people are very cavalier about not addressing common failure points or deferring them until a later time (e.g., E46 rear subframe reinforcements - have seen MANY E46s in shops getting repairs recently, VANOS repairs on S54 - ticking time bombs unless done, etc). just like coolant lines on certain 911s!
From what I know - this car was extremely well prepped - having nearly 100k invested. The shop that did a lot of the work has built many E46 race / track cars, so I am sure the basics would have been covered from a build standpoint. However I would still leave open possibility that something had become weakened recently and went undetected.
I have built 2 E36 track cars over the last two years and know the common failure points pretty well on both this and the E46. TXE36, I'm not sure that the presence of the RTAB still being attach to the car indicates that it did not fail. The failure is usually a crack that introduces wiggle of the arm that dramatically changes the geometry of the car. I'm not sure what to think at this point, except I do know that even with what is known now about these cars, people are very cavalier about not addressing common failure points or deferring them until a later time (e.g., E46 rear subframe reinforcements - have seen MANY E46s in shops getting repairs recently, VANOS repairs on S54 - ticking time bombs unless done, etc). just like coolant lines on certain 911s!
Glad the OP is in good shape and the cage/HANS did it's job.
I'm going under the assumption that the wheel departed the car before hitting the wall and was not, in itself, removed due to an impact. Had the OP just lost control because the rear end geometry got messed up, the left rear tire should have stayed with the car. Similarly, if the spring had just popped out, I would have expected the suspension to remain intact.
The picture of the detached wheel shows it came off violently, but evidence points away from the wall impact causing the violence. IMHO, something in the suspension let go in a big way and momentum and mass did the rest. The rear trailing arm on these cars is massive, to break one like that took a lot of force. Even after being broken, the trailing arm still did a number on the area of the pocket, pushing the whole area up by a large degree.
To explain the cavalier attitude - it always happens to the other guy.
It's amazing how well built these older BMWs really are. In my first car I only had a roll bar and hit a concrete wall at 72mph and while the front and rear of the car were mangled (I spun to hit the wall again) the passenger compartment was in good shape. I escaped with a concussion just like the OP despite not hitting my head on anything (I had a HANS and Halo seat with full harnesses - new build being tested before putting a cage in). I picked up a shiny new Stilo helmet...
The compartment in this car looks like it held up well, especially with help from the cage.
OP, do not forget to replace the Hans straps to go along with your new helmet.
I'm always amazed by the guys in new Z06 Corvettes who blast toward the bus stop at Watkins Glen at 165 mph with stock three-point belts, a helmet, jeans and a t-shirt.
It's ignorance. People may not understand the possibly outcomes of a 100+ mph accident, especially newbies. And as mentioned already, no one thinks it's going to happen to them. That's why guidelines set by event organizers are so important. I'm not sure what to say about cars that fast running stock safety equipment. There are a lot of them now, and it's a complex problem, and I can't help but wonder if we're headed for an accident like the Wannagofast one at one of "our" events someday ...
11-04-2018, 07:04 PM
